The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 24, 2008, 10:51 PM   #1
D.A.Clark
Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Location: Space Coast of Fl..
Posts: 28
SAA can safely load all 6 rounds

Are there any other brands of SAA type revolvers that are safe (for one reason or another) to load all 6 rounds, save for some Ruger's?
Is Ruger the only manufacturer that allows all 6 rounds to be loaded and carried safely in some of their SAA revolvers?
D.A.Clark is offline  
Old July 24, 2008, 10:52 PM   #2
Playboypenguin
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2006
Location: Great Pacific Northwest
Posts: 11,515
Any that have a transfer bar. I know Berettas do.
Playboypenguin is offline  
Old July 24, 2008, 11:00 PM   #3
RPrather
Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 30
I can with my Pietta Colt clone (as it has a tsb), but the manual still asserts that five is the way to go for safety.
__________________
--Ron
RPrather is offline  
Old July 24, 2008, 11:03 PM   #4
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
The newer Uberti's still have the hammer mounted firing pin but have a hammer block safety. Don't know how reliable it is.
Hawg is offline  
Old July 25, 2008, 09:20 AM   #5
w_houle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 29, 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,391
My Uberti has a quarter cock notch that activities a wedge between the hammer and the frame, but if you go to use it make sure to push the hammer forward to fully engage it. If you do not push it forward it is still possible to pull the trigger and drop the hammer. The Uberti also has two positions on the cylinder pin; one is a firing position and the other prevents the hammer from hitting a primer.
__________________
How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished?
w_houle is offline  
Old July 26, 2008, 09:41 AM   #6
Keltyke
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Posts: 2,933
Most SAA will have some type of sliding-block safety that prevents the hammer from hitting the firing pin. My Taurus Gaucho has one.
Keltyke is offline  
Old July 26, 2008, 10:13 AM   #7
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
Quote:
The Uberti also has two positions on the cylinder pin; one is a firing position and the other prevents the hammer from hitting a primer.
Most people grind the extra length off since it's a PITA getting it in the right groove, especially with an old style frame where you have a set screw to hold the pin in.

I know I'm going against "universal wisdom" but I always load six, always have. It takes a hammer fall of almost half cock to set off a primer. With the traditional style holsters I use snagging the hammer on anything is pretty much an impossibility as is dropping it out of the holster with the hammer thong tight. I'm not recommending anybody else do this. I'm just saying I do it. Besides back in the old days they didn't load five. Maybe a few did but most loaded six. There were a few Rugers in the 50's that went off and caused some law suits is where the load five came from.
Hawg is offline  
Old July 26, 2008, 10:33 AM   #8
mykeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2006
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,772
Hawg,

While I don't agree with you, I'll respect your decision to carry with all chambers loaded; I hope that you don't carry with the hammer down on a loaded, capped chamber in doing so, but are using the between chamber 'safety' pins or notches.

Be that as it may, however, I feel I must make a comment on the following statement:
Quote:
There were a few Rugers in the 50's that went off and caused some law suits is where the load five came from.
While there may have been lawsuits as a result of inadvertent discharges in the (19?)50's, I can come up with no logic as to how they resulted in individuals changing their method of carry from fully loaded to one empty chamber. In any case, there were, by your own admission people who carried an empty chamber long before the 1950's; the practice certainly did not start then.

Certainly my own decision to carry on empty was not the result of some 1950's lawsuit. I familiarized myself with the design and function of the revolvers and applied what to me are sound safety engineering principles.

That you have reached a different conclusion than me isn't the issue here. My concern is that you misunderstand the reasons for carrying on empty; it's not because of some lawsuit, but rather rational thought based on the physical reality of the design. That doesn't mean you;re being irrational or wrong, just that we don't agree on the conclusion. I would hope you can see that.
mykeal is offline  
Old July 26, 2008, 11:05 AM   #9
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
Quote:
While there may have been lawsuits as a result of inadvertent discharges in the (19?)50's, I can come up with no logic as to how they resulted in individuals changing their method of carry from fully loaded to one empty chamber.
That's when loading five started being touted. Actually I never heard of it till I started reading it in gun rags in the 60's. I let the hammer down between chambers on both C&B's and SAA's as I was taught by real old timers when I was young.

Quote:
That doesn't mean you;re being irrational or wrong, just that we don't agree on the conclusion. I would hope you can see that.
Of course I can and I'm not trying to get anybody to carry six. I always teach new shooters to carry five. Kinda like do as I say not as I do. Honestly , I guess I do it because I grew up doing it. I was taught that way and it's always worked for me. I've put SAA's and C&B's through some pretty extreme chit in my younger days and never had an AD. I just say it wasn't the norm to carry five back in the day because I've seen quite a few SAA's that were dug up fully loaded. I myself found an original 58 Remington in an old barn fully loaded and capped. If I'm not mistaken Robert E. Lee's 51 Navy was fired 7 years after his death and all six were loaded. I'm sure there were cases of loading five. I think I read somewhere it was Wyatt Earps habit to do so but I don't think it was normal for the day. People are just so much more safety oriented(not that that's a bad thing) and manufacturers are scared of lawsuits these days. Personally I'm glad the Italian manufacturers don't cave and put transfer bars in their guns. To me a SA just isn't right without the firing pin mounted on the hammer. Out of all the revolvers I have, both SA and DA only two don't have hammer mounted firing pins and I inherited both of them. I don't use them much either.
Hawg is offline  
Old July 26, 2008, 12:06 PM   #10
oldwheat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2005
Location: Dorton's Station
Posts: 105
Hawg is right on historically.. You really don't believe that the 'old-timers' carried their o/u deringers with one chamber empty, do you.. Myself, if I feel that I will really need 6 rounds, then that's what I load... I suppose that if you happened to drop your revolver from an appreciable height onto a hard surface, it might cook-off a round (I'm talking safety notch here) . If the gun were on full-cock there would be a loaded round under the hammer anyway..
But as Hawg also states: "Do as I say, not as I do ", safety first..
oldwheat is offline  
Old July 26, 2008, 02:07 PM   #11
Playboypenguin
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2006
Location: Great Pacific Northwest
Posts: 11,515
I do not see any real risk in carrying fully loaded with the hammer down in a holster that has a decent retention system. I probably would not do it myself without a transfer bar safety of some type of firing pin block but I would not consider the dangers of carrying without them all that risky since the biggest risk would be the gun falling out and striking the ground hammer down. The next biggest would be clothing pulling back and releasing the hammer, but again, a good holster will deter than rare event from occurring.
Playboypenguin is offline  
Old July 26, 2008, 02:27 PM   #12
tplumeri
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2007
Posts: 1,919
Quote:
My concern is that you misunderstand the reasons for carrying on empty; it's not because of some lawsuit, but rather rational thought based on the physical reality of the design.
perfectly safe to carry ruger's (post 60's) with 6 rounds. no legitimate record of accidental discharge from dropping or striking a ruger with the transfer bar.
THATS the "physical reality" of the design.
I have struck the hammer on my vaquero with an actual hammer, no discharge.
besides, you have to be pretty careless to drop a loaded revolver. seen folks do it while practicing "tricks" with an unloaded gun.....
tplumeri is offline  
Old July 26, 2008, 06:55 PM   #13
CraigC
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2001
Location: West Tennessee
Posts: 4,300
I have serious doubts that the "five beans in the wheel" routine came about in the 1950's.

Quote:
perfectly safe to carry ruger's (post 60's) with 6 rounds.
Post-1973, New Models only.


Quote:
no legitimate record of accidental discharge from dropping or striking a ruger with the transfer bar.
That's because it's a physical impossibility.
CraigC is offline  
Old July 26, 2008, 07:46 PM   #14
mykeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2006
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,772
Quote:
perfectly safe to carry ruger's (post 60's) with 6 rounds.
This is a black powder forum, so I'm assuming the discussion was limited to that genre. And the only bp Ruger revolver (made post-1970) does not have the transfer bar.
mykeal is offline  
Old July 26, 2008, 08:15 PM   #15
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
Quote:
This is a black powder forum, so I'm assuming the discussion was limited to that genre.
Not specifically black powder. Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting so the new Rugers apply.
Hawg is offline  
Old July 27, 2008, 02:29 AM   #16
marcseatac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 2006
Posts: 225
I'm not going to tell anyone how to treat their loaded guns but for myself I like the empty chamber. I don't trust the gun even in a secure holster with a retention strap.

I noticed one time while I was deer hunting I had my 58 Rem in a secure holster and climbed into my truck and sat back and got comfortable. Then I felt something catch the gun holster, it was the metal clip for the seat belt and it was trying to ignite one of the caps outside the hammer slot. It was almost touching and putting a good bit of pressure on the pistol.

You can't think of everything but some experiences give insight. That was one of them.

Happy shooting.
marcseatac is offline  
Old July 27, 2008, 06:46 AM   #17
mykeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2006
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,772
Quote:
Quote:
This is a black powder forum, so I'm assuming the discussion was limited to that genre.
Not specifically black powder. Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting so the new Rugers apply.
That's correct. Apologies. I'm not sure I'll ever get used to modern Rugers as 'cowboy action guns' - I have no problem with it, just can't get my head into it yet.

On 'experience':
No sane person intentionally carries or uses a gun in an unsafe manner. There are thoughtless people who don't understand or pay close enough attention, but for the most part we all try to be safe.

The range of options available varies from the ridiculous (never get out of bed in the morning, only to die in an earthquake) to the practical (decide how to handle and carry your gun in a manner that greatly reduces the chances of an inadvertent detonation) - nothing new in that but I thought I'd get it out of the way.

When considering what a 'safe manner' is we tend to rely on experience to think of what could happen. We tell ourselves we've thought of everything and thus feel 'safe'. Unfortunately, or perhaps luckily, we don't have the experience of a catastrophic event to teach us the one event that puts a ball in a leg or hip, so experience is not an adequate teacher.

The only other thing one can do is take a good look at our practices and the design of the equipment, and see what characteristics can be used to enhance safe handling and carry. The 'safety pins/notches' is one good example - using those doesn't guarantee the hammer won't get pulled back far enough to bring a round into battery, but it sure a lot safer than carry the hammer down on a loaded, capped chamber. It just makes sense to use them.

Is there anything else? Yes, putting the hammer down on an empty chamber. It IS safer because the hammer has to move farther and the cylinder has to rotate twice as far to bring the loaded chamber into battery. How much safer? Enough to make giving up that round worth it? What are the chances I'll actually need that round versus inadvertently shooting myself in the leg? Tough questions to answer. Nobody can answer them for you. And so there is no single 'right' answer.

But, at least we're thinking about what we're doing. As we all know, there are people out there using guns that aren't.
mykeal is offline  
Old July 27, 2008, 09:07 AM   #18
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
Quote:
That's correct. Apologies. I'm not sure I'll ever get used to modern Rugers as 'cowboy action guns' - I have no problem with it, just can't get my head into it yet.
I don't care what somebody else uses but I want no part of Ruger SA's. I've had a couple but they just ain't "right".

Quote:
Is there anything else? Yes, putting the hammer down on an empty chamber. It IS safer because the hammer has to move farther and the cylinder has to rotate twice as far to bring the loaded chamber into battery
I'll agree with that.


Quote:
How much safer? Enough to make giving up that round worth it?
Not to me.

Quote:
I noticed one time while I was deer hunting I had my 58 Rem in a secure holster and climbed into my truck and sat back and got comfortable. Then I felt something catch the gun holster, it was the metal clip for the seat belt and it was trying to ignite one of the caps outside the hammer slot. It was almost touching and putting a good bit of pressure on the pistol.
Putting pressure on a cap won't set it off. You can put all the pressure you possibly can on one and not set it off and yes I've tried. It takes a sharp blow to do it. On my guns it takes a hammer fall from almost half cock with my Remingtons to set off a cap. My Colt has to be on half cock to do it.
Hawg is offline  
Old July 27, 2008, 10:10 AM   #19
W. C. Quantrill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2008
Location: No Man's Land
Posts: 354
I was hunting in 1970 with an old model Blackhawk (30 carbine). I had already shot it twice, so it was sitting on an empty chamber. It was in a holster also. I was crawling between the wires of a fence, putting the sneak on the next victim when I felt something and I looked down and back in time to see the fence wire thumb back the hammer then let it go. It rotated the cylinder but did not catch the full cock notch.

The bullet entered my right leg just outside of my kneecap, followed the bone down to my ankle bone and then exited out through the side of my boot. The hospital was 60 miles away, and the surgeon told me he removed over 2 pounds of damaged meat out of the side of my leg, and put in 84 stitches to close it, 42 inside and 42 outside.

I sold that gun soon afterwards and bought a .45 New Model with the transfer bar. I made a new holster that has a hammer thong. I hunt with the gun, and load 6, but the hammer is tied down and the trigger guard is closed so that the only way the gun can discharge is for me to release the hammer tie, then pull the gun from the holster. It cannot leave the security of the holster by accident.

This isnt a black powder story, but I thought I would share it with you all as a personal experience.
__________________
NRA Life
Whittington Center Life
W. C. Quantrill is offline  
Old July 27, 2008, 02:02 PM   #20
D.A.Clark
Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Location: Space Coast of Fl..
Posts: 28
That's ok, I started this thread as a kind of quasi Ruger thread anyway.
My question is for the folks that feel loading a 6th round is safe enough for them. Do you follow this procedure at the target range? Plinking field? Or just breaking bottles with your buddies? Do you feel this is a safe practice with others around you? No knock intended, I'm just curious if you modify this practice due to external factors and circumstances like an audience or spectators?
D.A.Clark is offline  
Old July 27, 2008, 02:12 PM   #21
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
I don't shoot at public ranges. SASS only allows five except for C&B then you can load six and leave one chamber uncapped. If I've got a SA revolver it's loaded full up. If I go hunting with one or just out shooting and other people are going to be around me I'll tell them it is, it's up to them whether to go with me or not.
Hawg is offline  
Old July 27, 2008, 04:26 PM   #22
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,486
Just for the record, if you shoot yourself in the foot, are you going to sue the gunmaker?

Ruger didn't go to transfer bars for the fun of it, they lost multiple lawsuits by people who shot themselves through failing to read the instructions.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old July 27, 2008, 05:05 PM   #23
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
Quote:
Just for the record, if you shoot yourself in the foot, are you going to sue the gunmaker?
Of course not.


Quote:
Ruger didn't go to transfer bars for the fun of it, they lost multiple lawsuits by people who shot themselves through failing to read the instructions.
I grew up with these guns. I was turned loose with my first sa when I was 10.
I know them inside and out. I bought my first 58 Remington with my own money when I was 12. Carried it on an almost daily basis till I was 15. I'm not advocating anybody else do it. I mainly brought it up because IMHO it wasn't done by the vast majority of gun owners back in the day. Those lawsuits you mentioned are when loading five got so much attention.
Hawg is offline  
Old July 27, 2008, 05:05 PM   #24
marcseatac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 2006
Posts: 225
The early single action revolver is arguable the most dangerous firearm one can possess. These accidental shootings fall into the realm of freak accidents. There are so many variables to consider. People say caps are safe, I agree but at what point? Is there a sharp edge on the nipple? Whats the temperature? Has the gun been exposed to direct sunlight?

I blackpowder deer hunt and I know from experience carrying BP rifle and pistol that you can't turn your back on these things. I had an ash fall off a cigarette one time and the wind almost blew it into my open holster. Freak accident?, yes it could have been, but I was lucky that day.

Also I remember something about people rolling up a dollar bill and putting it in that empty chamber. Don't know where I got that from an old movie maybe. Anyway it went that it could end up being your last dollar and you always hung on to your last dollar. A dollar being a good amount of money once upon a time.............I always remembered that.

Last edited by marcseatac; July 27, 2008 at 05:27 PM. Reason: add more
marcseatac is offline  
Old July 27, 2008, 05:22 PM   #25
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
The old timers did not buy a six-shooter and then carry five rounds. All that "five beans" and "$20 in a chamber" baloney was invented by Colt's lawyers in the modern era.

The old timers used the safety notch for what it was intended for, but in the Colt SAA (and many other SA revolvers) any hard blow on the hammer will break the trigger and allow the firing pin to reach the primer of a round under the hammer. They also carried the SA with the hammer down between rounds, quite safe and easy to do with any caliber but .45 Colt.

Jim
James K is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11392 seconds with 8 queries