You can CCW in fed property

Metellus · March 2, 2005, 12:29 AM

Sometimes I think the government is lame. The post office lists 2 things on their big scary no firearms signs but none of the relevant exceptions. My opinion is that you can CCW in a post office if your state allows you to. My state Virginia lists specific areas where you can not CCW and federal buildings such as post office is not listed as part of VA restrictions. VA does restrict CCW in courts, schools, religious places (unless you got a good reason...says that in the law hehe), liquor establishments, and private property that list a sign saying no guns. But post offices are not private property so VA law does not say there is any restrictions on post offices whatsoever. As far as federal laws my opinion is below.

BIG SCARY NO FIREARMS IN POST OFFICE SIGN
http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-1508.html

1) Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930. - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities. And it even states at the bottom of it that all federal buildings will list by a big sign subsection a and b but not d (the exceptions to a and b). That's junk.... oh well that's the law! Notice though subsection d sort of makes a and b moot! Section a bans guns in federal facilities. Section b says you you'll be punished even more if you intend to commit a crime in fed facility with a gun. Section c says if you kill someone with a gun in a fed facility you're in deep trouble. Section d says section a does not apply to (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes. So that means to me that if you don't plan to commit crimes and kill people in federal facilities and you are lawfully carrying your weapon then you're ok. So if your state lawfully allows you to conceal carry in a post office then Sec 930 subsection a that bans firearms in federal facilities do not apply to you if you have a CCW.

2) A Code of Federal Regulations. Clearly states that in section L you can't do it but in section P it says none of these rules abrogate federal and state laws applied to the postal property. So I think that means ignore it if it contradicts a federal law such as "Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930"

=====================================================
Excerpts of Code of Federal Regulations TITLE 39--POSTAL SERVICE
Sec. 232.1 Conduct on postal property.

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may
carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either
openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for
official purposes.

(p) Penalties and other law. (1) Alleged violations of these rules
and regulations are heard, and the penalties prescribed herein are
imposed, either in a Federal district court or by a Federal magistrate
in accordance with applicable court rules. Questions regarding such
rules should be directed to the regional counsel for the region
involved.
(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and
regulations in this section while on property under the charge and
control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or
imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in
these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other
Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations
applicable to any area in which the property is situated.

Full Postal Code found at
http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/usps39cfr232-1.html#w

========================================

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 930 Prev | Next

§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

Release date: 2004-08-06

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
(e)
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.
(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.
(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

chris in va · March 2, 2005, 01:01 AM

I don't know man, it says not to carry in federal facilities where posted on the door. Sucks, but that's just the way it is I guess. I have a feeling that's why no guns are allowed in DC as well.

Hey, you see my post on OC in Uno's?

Metellus · March 2, 2005, 01:32 AM

Chris,

"it says not to carry in federal facilities where posted on the door"

Can you clarify what you mean by "it".

What the post office posts on their door is what is highlighted in my post which is the the specific law Title 18 Section 930. It even says in that section under subsection (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

In other words the statute itself says to post sections and a, b on federal buildings but not to post subsection d which is the exceptions to a.

The reason DC bans guns has nothing to do with federal law. The city of D.C. bans all handguns so that's why it is illegal to have any handgun in D.C.

As my post stated Title 18 Section 930 says it is illegeal to have a firearm in a federal building if it is unlawful to have a firearm in federal property per the laws of that state. (duh!) So you can't have a firearm in a post office in MD and DC but VA doesn't say anything about post offices or any other federal building in their concealed handgun permit restrictions.

D.C. is sort of confusing since they are their own city yet under federal oversight. They aren't a state even though they want to be!

chris in va · March 2, 2005, 01:46 AM

Heh..you type faster than I do.

Virginia is weird with their laws. Basically they're made up of what juries decide, and you're left to try and decipher what that means. Basically I just try and understand what it says in Virginia Gun Owners Guide and stick with that.

Metellus · March 2, 2005, 02:00 AM

Just to get a better understanding. What's the VA Gun Owner's guide say about post offices? Post offices are not private property so not sure if sign postings apply to post offices.

Brian D. · March 2, 2005, 08:14 PM

Always has seemed to me that given their history, it would be more "useful" for the Post Office to put those big scary NO GUNS signs at the employee entrance and skip the front door..

March 2, 2005, 12:29 AM	#1
Metellus Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Posts: 156	You can CCW in fed property Sometimes I think the government is lame. The post office lists 2 things on their big scary no firearms signs but none of the relevant exceptions. My opinion is that you can CCW in a post office if your state allows you to. My state Virginia lists specific areas where you can not CCW and federal buildings such as post office is not listed as part of VA restrictions. VA does restrict CCW in courts, schools, religious places (unless you got a good reason...says that in the law hehe), liquor establishments, and private property that list a sign saying no guns. But post offices are not private property so VA law does not say there is any restrictions on post offices whatsoever. As far as federal laws my opinion is below. BIG SCARY NO FIREARMS IN POST OFFICE SIGN http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-1508.html 1) Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930. - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities. And it even states at the bottom of it that all federal buildings will list by a big sign subsection a and b but not d (the exceptions to a and b). That's junk.... oh well that's the law! Notice though subsection d sort of makes a and b moot! Section a bans guns in federal facilities. Section b says you you'll be punished even more if you intend to commit a crime in fed facility with a gun. Section c says if you kill someone with a gun in a fed facility you're in deep trouble. Section d says section a does not apply to (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes. So that means to me that if you don't plan to commit crimes and kill people in federal facilities and you are lawfully carrying your weapon then you're ok. So if your state lawfully allows you to conceal carry in a post office then Sec 930 subsection a that bans firearms in federal facilities do not apply to you if you have a CCW. 2) A Code of Federal Regulations. Clearly states that in section L you can't do it but in section P it says none of these rules abrogate federal and state laws applied to the postal property. So I think that means ignore it if it contradicts a federal law such as "Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930" ===================================================== Excerpts of Code of Federal Regulations TITLE 39--POSTAL SERVICE Sec. 232.1 Conduct on postal property. (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes. (p) Penalties and other law. (1) Alleged violations of these rules and regulations are heard, and the penalties prescribed herein are imposed, either in a Federal district court or by a Federal magistrate in accordance with applicable court rules. Questions regarding such rules should be directed to the regional counsel for the region involved. (2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated. Full Postal Code found at http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/usps39cfr232-1.html#w ======================================== TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 930 Prev \| Next § 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities Release date: 2004-08-06 (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both. (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both. (c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117. (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to— (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law; (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes. (e) (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both. (2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d). (f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building. (g) As used in this section: (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties. (2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length. (3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States. (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

March 2, 2005, 01:32 AM	#3
Metellus Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Posts: 156	? Chris, "it says not to carry in federal facilities where posted on the door" Can you clarify what you mean by "it". What the post office posts on their door is what is highlighted in my post which is the the specific law Title 18 Section 930. It even says in that section under subsection (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be. In other words the statute itself says to post sections and a, b on federal buildings but not to post subsection d which is the exceptions to a. The reason DC bans guns has nothing to do with federal law. The city of D.C. bans all handguns so that's why it is illegal to have any handgun in D.C. As my post stated Title 18 Section 930 says it is illegeal to have a firearm in a federal building if it is unlawful to have a firearm in federal property per the laws of that state. (duh!) So you can't have a firearm in a post office in MD and DC but VA doesn't say anything about post offices or any other federal building in their concealed handgun permit restrictions. D.C. is sort of confusing since they are their own city yet under federal oversight. They aren't a state even though they want to be!

March 2, 2005, 02:00 AM	#5
Metellus Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Posts: 156	? Just to get a better understanding. What's the VA Gun Owner's guide say about post offices? Post offices are not private property so not sure if sign postings apply to post offices.

March 2, 2005, 08:14 PM	#6
Brian D. Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2002 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 230	Always has seemed to me that given their history, it would be more "useful" for the Post Office to put those big scary NO GUNS signs at the employee entrance and skip the front door.. __________________ "...give me a Rohrbaugh." --Jeff OTMG, 6/22/04. Hmm, that's probably the only way I'd get one, at least until CDNN has a closeout sale like on those Autauga .32s..

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March 2, 2005, 01:01 AM	#2
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	I don't know man, it says not to carry in federal facilities where posted on the door. Sucks, but that's just the way it is I guess. I have a feeling that's why no guns are allowed in DC as well. Hey, you see my post on OC in Uno's?

March 2, 2005, 01:46 AM	#4
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Heh..you type faster than I do. Virginia is weird with their laws. Basically they're made up of what juries decide, and you're left to try and decipher what that means. Basically I just try and understand what it says in Virginia Gun Owners Guide and stick with that.