22 Lr. how to get a shooter? - Page 2

Sevens · October 4, 2014, 01:15 PM

Would you not then also repeat the same 50 rounds in to one target trick for EACH different brand of ammo you could find?

Snyper · October 4, 2014, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Would you not then also repeat the same 50 rounds in to one target trick for EACH different brand of ammo you could find?

There wouldn't be much point in that unless they all could shoot SMALL groups to begin with.

If you had a few brands with similar accuracy, it might be worth the trouble and expense, but I really don't see much point in it.

A few shots will tell you the potential of the gun and ammo combination

A LOT of shots starts telling you more about the shooter's abilities

Gazpacho · October 6, 2014, 12:49 AM

Nothing cheap.

SK Rifle Match or Wolf Match Target 22lr ammo @ $100/500 rounds, currently.
Decent 4x scope or Simmons Whitetail Classic @ $100
Gunsmith trigger job $???

After all that your Remmie 581 may or may not shoot 1" @ 50 yards. That's shooting from a bench under good conditions. For a walkabput squirrel gun, you would probably be better served getting lessons on how to shoot accurately.

I have 2 22lr rifles that I can shoot 1" or better at 50 yards, from a bench. A Baikal CM-2 that is completely stock @ $600. The other is a full custom Volquartsen that has cost me over $1000.

Not cheap.

Bart B. · October 6, 2014, 08:37 AM

Snyper's claim:

Quote:

A few shots will tell you the potential of the gun and ammo combination

A LOT of shots starts telling you more about the shooter's abilities

Does that mean that 2 or 3 few-shot groups are about the same size and their centers are at the same place?

Does that mean that it's impossible for the first few-shot group to be 1/5th or 5 times the size of the second one?

Sevens asks:

Quote:

Would you not then also repeat the same 50 rounds in to one target trick for EACH different brand of ammo you could find?

Yes.

That's typical of what good smallbore competitors do shooting prone with a scope at 100 yards. Fifty shots gives them a high level of confidence in the accuracy that lot of ammo has. Good lots of ammo will shoot inside an inch for them.

603Country · October 6, 2014, 12:02 PM

To the OP...I think I'd go with the approach of buying a known shooter, rather than trying to make a cheap 22 shoot great. Years ago I wanted a very accurate 22lr, and I found an old Remington 513T at a pawn shop. Long bull barrel, target iron sights, and a light trigger. Somebody had spent much time on that rifle. I paid $100 and took it home. Had it drilled and tapped for a scope. Mounted the scope and went to the range. Incredibly accurate, but unfortunately was far too heavy to hunt squirrels with. So now I use my old 39A, with 2x7 Leopold scope. Works great and is plenty accurate at 50 yards, particularly if I spend some time finding the best ammo for it.

The old 513T was built, I think, to compete with the Win Model 52. Very accurate. Probably still available at a good price. Find one and have the barrel shortened. Still gonna be heavy, but there's nothing much available that'll shoot that good for that price. I shoulda kept mine.

Bart B. · October 6, 2014, 12:31 PM

603, Remington's 513T was built to compete with Winchester's 75; both medium priced and accuracy level rifles for beginners to have something better than standard sporting rifles from each maker.

Winchester's 52 came about in the early 1920's. Remington's 37 was introduced in 1937 to compete with it, but never really did. The 37's action was pretty good, but nothing else was. That 52 was a loss-leader rifle for its last 15 to 20 years; cost almost twice as much to make as it sold for. The last ones made without the barrel band were the most accurate. Remington's rimfire 40X tried to compete starting in the early 1960's but never quite did so. Then Anschutz, Walther and Hammerli finally put both out of production except for custom 40X centerfire versions from Remington.

Federal made top notch match rimfire ammo for a few years in the 1990's until the powder company supplying propellant to them wanted way too much for Federal to compete with Eley and RWS.

603Country · October 7, 2014, 09:48 AM

Thanks Bart. I remembered that the rifle was to compete with a Winchester model, and I guessed that it was the model 52. I also apparently was a bit wrong on what it would cost to buy a 513t Matchmaster, though maybe the Sporter version can still be had for a decent price. I googled up some prices and now wish I still had mine. Anyway, my point about trying to find an older 22lr at a cheap price should still be a good option for anyone that wants a great shooter but doesn't need to shoot in competition.

The only thing about that old 513T that wasn't so great is that the action itself was not that impressive. Not beefy and sturdy looking. Still shot great however.

As to the ammo,I was thinking that I used to be able to get all sorts of great shooting ammo. These days that's not so easy. I did however recently buy a brick of CCI 22lr that was supposedly made to a higher quality for use and for positive function in AR15 type actions. Shots very well in my old 39A, which is what I use for squirrels.

Bart B. · October 7, 2014, 12:58 PM

Rimfire actions don't need to be sturdy. Anschutz' 1400, 1800 and 1900 series are among the flimsiest ones out there. They're used to win gold medals in int'l competition.

HiBC · October 7, 2014, 02:10 PM

I would not expect a 513 S to be less expensive than a 513 T.Pretty much the same rifle,but a slightly more slender stock and barrel.

IIRC,the "S" model was only made for 5 to 7 years in the 50's,and production was less than 4000.

I had one.Was my rabbit rifle.I figured my son in law needed a good rifle.

Found a cigar box 513 receiver.No bolt.Had it many years.Discovered e-bay.

Found a bolt,then a military bolt handle....The a real nice CMP stock...a gunsmith estate sale as new 513T Matchmaster bbl.A Redfield 75.

Had a little sight height problem to mount a globe,discovered the Ken Viani solution,its a Weaver type bridge scope base,made to utilize the original receiver sight screw holes,plus a barrel mount target block just ahead of the front receiver ring.No drilling or tapping required if the bbl had target scope blocks.

This base also has the mounting rail for the Redfield 75 on the left rear of the base,about 3/8 in higher than the original mount for the 75.

I was also able to order a target sight block for a front globe sight that would utilize the original front sight screw holes.So now I can clamp a nice globe on the front.

To compliment it,I found a 8x Lyman All American with a p-lax adj objective that max s out at 200 yds...I assume its a rimfire scope.

Its one of those 90 % finished projects .

I'm thinking the scope may need a Lee dot or two

But,frankly,I doubt it will come close to what some of the 10-22 clones will do.

Like maybe starting with a lugged stainless threaded barrel type MOA receiver,a Volk trigger group and a Lilja bbl...

I agree,the Win 52 is in a different league..I have about a 1920 vintage here,looks like a trainer for a 1917,similar ladder rec sight.

Only Anschutz I have is a German little double set Mannlicher stocked Jr Varminter.....

spacemanspiff · October 7, 2014, 03:37 PM

It was about 8 or 9 years ago I had the opportunity to shoot a CZ452. Until then my only experience with 22lr was out of a Marlin Papoose. I was so impressed that from standing, at 50 yards I put 3 shots touching.

It took me several years to finally obtain a CZ, and its a 455 model now. I wanted the Lux but I took the first CZ that my favored gunshop recieved. I think I wound up with the American model. Put a Leupold 2-7rf on it, and its adequate with valuepack type ammo.

I am really hoping that with match grade ammo it will "Wow" me again. for now, I find more satisfaction shooting at clays on the burm at 100 yards than shooting for groups.

Mystro · October 7, 2014, 03:43 PM

I have had a few nice 22lr rifles but by far the best out of the box shooter is this Savage. Squirrels and crows at 100yards are one head shot away every time. Its a killing machine. I even had some very smart crows think they were out of my range at 175yards, they were dead wrong.

btmj · October 9, 2014, 09:43 PM

Honestly,,, if you want a really accurate 22, find a used Anschutz. I almost bought one from a guy who was ready to sell. He let me put 20 rounds through it, and that just about sold me. I just was not ready for that kind of rifle at that time.

Fotheringill · October 10, 2014, 04:54 PM

It comes down to a few things for very tight groups at 100 yards. I would forget target shooting at 150 altogether.

You will need to spend about $2000 WITHOUT the scope,
Top quality front rest and rear rest (not necessarily leather bag either). Cost another &50-900
Top ammo which nowadays will run $20/50. You will need to test out brick after brick of different brands and speeds.
Barrel tuner- figure $150 + fitting onto your rifle.
Bedding and pillaring unless your build comes with it.
Benchrest stock.
No variable wind. Steady breeze can be adjusted for, but not variable with consistency.
Luck.

I have shot everything from Henry to Savage to Marlin semi to Marlin bolt, to jw-15 to CZ 452's to Anschutz 1913a.

Good luck.

October 4, 2014, 01:15 PM	#26
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,755	Would you not then also repeat the same 50 rounds in to one target trick for EACH different brand of ammo you could find? __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

October 7, 2014, 02:10 PM	#34
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	I would not expect a 513 S to be less expensive than a 513 T.Pretty much the same rifle,but a slightly more slender stock and barrel. IIRC,the "S" model was only made for 5 to 7 years in the 50's,and production was less than 4000. I had one.Was my rabbit rifle.I figured my son in law needed a good rifle. Found a cigar box 513 receiver.No bolt.Had it many years.Discovered e-bay. Found a bolt,then a military bolt handle....The a real nice CMP stock...a gunsmith estate sale as new 513T Matchmaster bbl.A Redfield 75. Had a little sight height problem to mount a globe,discovered the Ken Viani solution,its a Weaver type bridge scope base,made to utilize the original receiver sight screw holes,plus a barrel mount target block just ahead of the front receiver ring.No drilling or tapping required if the bbl had target scope blocks. This base also has the mounting rail for the Redfield 75 on the left rear of the base,about 3/8 in higher than the original mount for the 75. I was also able to order a target sight block for a front globe sight that would utilize the original front sight screw holes.So now I can clamp a nice globe on the front. To compliment it,I found a 8x Lyman All American with a p-lax adj objective that max s out at 200 yds...I assume its a rimfire scope. Its one of those 90 % finished projects . I'm thinking the scope may need a Lee dot or two But,frankly,I doubt it will come close to what some of the 10-22 clones will do. Like maybe starting with a lugged stainless threaded barrel type MOA receiver,a Volk trigger group and a Lilja bbl... I agree,the Win 52 is in a different league..I have about a 1920 vintage here,looks like a trainer for a 1917,similar ladder rec sight. Only Anschutz I have is a German little double set Mannlicher stocked Jr Varminter..... Last edited by HiBC; October 7, 2014 at 02:29 PM.

October 7, 2014, 03:37 PM	#35
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	It was about 8 or 9 years ago I had the opportunity to shoot a CZ452. Until then my only experience with 22lr was out of a Marlin Papoose. I was so impressed that from standing, at 50 yards I put 3 shots touching. It took me several years to finally obtain a CZ, and its a 455 model now. I wanted the Lux but I took the first CZ that my favored gunshop recieved. I think I wound up with the American model. Put a Leupold 2-7rf on it, and its adequate with valuepack type ammo. I am really hoping that with match grade ammo it will "Wow" me again. for now, I find more satisfaction shooting at clays on the burm at 100 yards than shooting for groups. __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

October 7, 2014, 03:43 PM	#36
Mystro Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Central Pa. Posts: 1,528	I have had a few nice 22lr rifles but by far the best out of the box shooter is this Savage. Squirrels and crows at 100yards are one head shot away every time. Its a killing machine. I even had some very smart crows think they were out of my range at 175yards, they were dead wrong. __________________ "I'm a good guy with a gun" What do I care if I give up some freedom or rights?....The Goverment will take care of me. This kind of thinking is now in the majority and it should concern you. "Ask not what you can do for your country, but what free entitlements you can bleed from your country"

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October 6, 2014, 12:49 AM	#28
Gazpacho Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2004 Posts: 592	Nothing cheap. SK Rifle Match or Wolf Match Target 22lr ammo @ $100/500 rounds, currently. Decent 4x scope or Simmons Whitetail Classic @ $100 Gunsmith trigger job $??? After all that your Remmie 581 may or may not shoot 1" @ 50 yards. That's shooting from a bench under good conditions. For a walkabput squirrel gun, you would probably be better served getting lessons on how to shoot accurately. I have 2 22lr rifles that I can shoot 1" or better at 50 yards, from a bench. A Baikal CM-2 that is completely stock @ $600. The other is a full custom Volquartsen that has cost me over $1000. Not cheap.

October 6, 2014, 12:02 PM	#30
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,996	To the OP...I think I'd go with the approach of buying a known shooter, rather than trying to make a cheap 22 shoot great. Years ago I wanted a very accurate 22lr, and I found an old Remington 513T at a pawn shop. Long bull barrel, target iron sights, and a light trigger. Somebody had spent much time on that rifle. I paid $100 and took it home. Had it drilled and tapped for a scope. Mounted the scope and went to the range. Incredibly accurate, but unfortunately was far too heavy to hunt squirrels with. So now I use my old 39A, with 2x7 Leopold scope. Works great and is plenty accurate at 50 yards, particularly if I spend some time finding the best ammo for it. The old 513T was built, I think, to compete with the Win Model 52. Very accurate. Probably still available at a good price. Find one and have the barrel shortened. Still gonna be heavy, but there's nothing much available that'll shoot that good for that price. I shoulda kept mine.

October 6, 2014, 12:31 PM	#31
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	603, Remington's 513T was built to compete with Winchester's 75; both medium priced and accuracy level rifles for beginners to have something better than standard sporting rifles from each maker. Winchester's 52 came about in the early 1920's. Remington's 37 was introduced in 1937 to compete with it, but never really did. The 37's action was pretty good, but nothing else was. That 52 was a loss-leader rifle for its last 15 to 20 years; cost almost twice as much to make as it sold for. The last ones made without the barrel band were the most accurate. Remington's rimfire 40X tried to compete starting in the early 1960's but never quite did so. Then Anschutz, Walther and Hammerli finally put both out of production except for custom 40X centerfire versions from Remington. Federal made top notch match rimfire ammo for a few years in the 1990's until the powder company supplying propellant to them wanted way too much for Federal to compete with Eley and RWS.

October 7, 2014, 09:48 AM	#32
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,996	Thanks Bart. I remembered that the rifle was to compete with a Winchester model, and I guessed that it was the model 52. I also apparently was a bit wrong on what it would cost to buy a 513t Matchmaster, though maybe the Sporter version can still be had for a decent price. I googled up some prices and now wish I still had mine. Anyway, my point about trying to find an older 22lr at a cheap price should still be a good option for anyone that wants a great shooter but doesn't need to shoot in competition. The only thing about that old 513T that wasn't so great is that the action itself was not that impressive. Not beefy and sturdy looking. Still shot great however. As to the ammo,I was thinking that I used to be able to get all sorts of great shooting ammo. These days that's not so easy. I did however recently buy a brick of CCI 22lr that was supposedly made to a higher quality for use and for positive function in AR15 type actions. Shots very well in my old 39A, which is what I use for squirrels.

October 7, 2014, 12:58 PM	#33
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Rimfire actions don't need to be sturdy. Anschutz' 1400, 1800 and 1900 series are among the flimsiest ones out there. They're used to win gold medals in int'l competition.

October 9, 2014, 09:43 PM	#37
btmj Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2011 Location: Near St. Louis, Missouri Posts: 864	Honestly,,, if you want a really accurate 22, find a used Anschutz. I almost bought one from a guy who was ready to sell. He let me put 20 rounds through it, and that just about sold me. I just was not ready for that kind of rifle at that time.

October 10, 2014, 04:54 PM	#38
Fotheringill Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2014 Posts: 114	It comes down to a few things for very tight groups at 100 yards. I would forget target shooting at 150 altogether. You will need to spend about $2000 WITHOUT the scope, Top quality front rest and rear rest (not necessarily leather bag either). Cost another &50-900 Top ammo which nowadays will run $20/50. You will need to test out brick after brick of different brands and speeds. Barrel tuner- figure $150 + fitting onto your rifle. Bedding and pillaring unless your build comes with it. Benchrest stock. No variable wind. Steady breeze can be adjusted for, but not variable with consistency. Luck. I have shot everything from Henry to Savage to Marlin semi to Marlin bolt, to jw-15 to CZ 452's to Anschutz 1913a. Good luck.