Firearms Transfer between unlicensed family members

Nathan · January 15, 2024, 11:26 AM

I thought I had asked this before.

My father has an older Ruger Super Blackhawk he would like to gift to me. He lives in MT. I live in OH. We are both unlicensed. We both do not have a disability as defined by the ATF. If we both lived in the same state, I believe he could just hand it to me. He is a ways from passing away.

We see each other 2-4 times a year in OH or MT. Is it legal to hand it off in one state or the other? If not, is it legal in one state or the other to do an FFL transfer where we are ftf with the FFL?

Is there another way?

mehavey · January 15, 2024, 12:52 PM

Federally . . . It has to go through an FFL in the receiver's state.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whom...arms-under-gca

i.e., Party #1 can travel to Party #2's state, and both parties vist an FFL there.

dogtown tom · January 15, 2024, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Nathan I thought I had asked this before.

My father has an older Ruger Super Blackhawk he would like to gift to me. He lives in MT. I live in OH. We are both unlicensed.

As mehavey say, it must transfer through an FFL in the recipients state of residence.

Quote:

If we both lived in the same state, I believe he could just hand it to me.

True

Quote:

We see each other 2-4 times a year in OH or MT. Is it legal to hand it off in one state or the other?

.
Rifles and shotguns can be transferred through an FFL in either state, but handguns only in the transferees state. Provided state law permits.

Quote:

Is there another way?

Nope.

**44 AMP** · January 15, 2024, 07:13 PM

Because it was 20 years ago, I'm not sure if this still applies the same way...

My Father passed in 2003. He lived in NY. I live in WA. Knowing what was going to happen, I contacted an FFL local to me, and got his information.

I went back to NY for the funeral and to help settle some things. My brother lived in NY was the named executor, and still had my Dad's pistols on his permit. We took the guns to an FFL in NY, he contacted my FFL, got the info he needed (copy of receiving FFL license, etc) and shipped three pistols to him. My brother had to deliver the pistols to the NY FFL, as he was the legal possessor, (I paid the shipping and FFL fees) and after the guns arrived at my FFL, I picked them up.

I don't have any idea what your state laws may require (if anything) but it seems to me that your Father could take the gun to an FFL where he lives, and have it shipped to an FFL where you live and you could take possession there. (current FFL dealers reading this, please correct me if I'm in error).

cdoc42 · January 15, 2024, 08:03 PM

Is there really any possibility that criminals are going to do this? The law is burdensome to the law-abiding citizen and ignored by those for whom the law was intended.

If a father has a handgun that he purchased 20 years ago, lives in Virginia, and is at a ripe old age he cannot reasonably enjoy using it legally, decides before he dies, to give it to his 50-year-old son who lives anywhere but Virginia, and neither has any history of an unlawful action that would prohibit ownership of either one, why would they go through this burdensome process? Just give it to your son. Who knows? If the son happens to kill someone with it in the future, the son is prosecuted and maybe Dad is underground by then. What is the point of this process?

P Flados · January 15, 2024, 08:31 PM

I can only think of one "is there another way".

Look up residency rules. Have your Dad "move in with you" long enough to establish residency. He can then give you guns with no paperwork.

dogtown tom · January 15, 2024, 09:53 PM

Quote:

cdoc42 Is there really any possibility that criminals are going to do this? The law is burdensome to the law-abiding citizen and ignored by those for whom the law was intended.

Criminals by definition do not comply with laws.
And yes, often complying with the law is burdensome, but its still the law.

Quote:

If a father has a handgun that he purchased 20 years ago, lives in Virginia, and is at a ripe old age he cannot reasonably enjoy using it legally, decides before he dies, to give it to his 50-year-old son who lives anywhere but Virginia, and neither has any history of an unlawful action that would prohibit ownership of either one, why would they go through this burdensome process?

Because its the law and violating the law means never possessing a firearm again.

Quote:

Just give it to your son. Who knows?

Likely no one would ever know.

Quote:

If the son happens to kill someone with it in the future, the son is prosecuted and maybe Dad is underground by then. What is the point of this process?

Ummmmm.....how about not going to jail, being fined and prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm ever.

dogtown tom · January 15, 2024, 09:57 PM

Quote:

P Flados I can only think of one "is there another way".

Look up residency rules. Have your Dad "move in with you" long enough to establish residency. He can then give you guns with no paperwork.

Surprisingly, for the purposes of acquiring firearms, ATF regulations/federal law are pretty liberal. You just have to reside in a state with the intention of making it your home.

There is no "long enough to establish residency" as might be required for voting, paying taxes, etc.

See https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...dence/download

**44 AMP** · January 15, 2024, 10:10 PM

Is there some reason why Dad going to an FFL in his state and having the gun sent to an FFL in the son's state won't work??

Sure, it costs more than just handing the kid the gun, but it does satisfy all federal requirements, doesn't it??

The point isn't about who would ever know, or how likely you would be to be caught, but about obeying the law, whether or not you personally agree with it, its still the LAW.

cdoc42 · January 16, 2024, 06:30 PM

So why don't we all simply agree with a law that demands we sell our ARs and any other guns the law doesn't like, to the government?

dogtown tom · January 16, 2024, 07:26 PM

Quote:

cdoc42 So why don't we all simply agree with a law that demands we sell our ARs and any other guns the law doesn't like, to the government?

Why?
Because there is no such law thats why.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 16, 2024, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdoc42

So why don't we all simply agree with a law that demands we sell our ARs and any other guns the law doesn't like, to the government?

Agreeing that we don't like a law and we don't think it should be constitutional is one thing. Agreeing that it's in any way a good idea to knowingly violate a law is quite another matter entirely. The law is the law, unless and until the Supreme Court strikes it down. And the law says that interstate transfers of handguns MUST go through an FFL in the state of residence of the transferee (recipient).

If anyone wishes to do otherwise, feel free to do so at your own risk. I would just remind everyone that the rules of tis forum do not allow advocating unlawful actions, so if you think it's a good idea to break that law -- don't post it here.

Nathan · January 16, 2024, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Is there some reason why Dad going to an FFL in his state and having the gun sent to an FFL in the son's state won't work??

It is a significant burden. This is likely why it hasn’t happened yet.

It would add $70 cost to the transaction. Require my dad find an FFL. It is the only compliant way I see to do it too, but I thought it worth asking.

Sounds like he could transfer in person to a dealer in my state who could transfer to me as an option too.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 17, 2024, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan

Sounds like he could transfer in person to a dealer in my state who could transfer to me as an option too.

You did mention that you see each other a couple of times a year in both MT and OH. If he brings the gun with him the next time he visits you in OH, you can go together to an Ohio FFL and do the transfer there.

mehavey · January 17, 2024, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan
Sounds like he could transfer in person to a dealer in my state who could transfer to me as an option too

See Post #2

HHQ · January 18, 2024, 05:03 PM

If your dad comes to Ohio and you go to an Ohio ffl, how does the ffl know your father is the legal owner of the firearm? How long has your dad had this pistol?
What do you mean by, "unlicensed"?
Perhaps I'm clueless as I live in Alaska. We buy and sell F to F regularly without involving an ffl. There are websites you can advertise a firearm for sale here. I am not aware of anyone ever being arrested for transferring a firearm, F to F without an ffl.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 18, 2024, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HHQ

Perhaps I'm clueless as I live in Alaska. We buy and sell F to F regularly without involving an ffl. There are websites you can advertise a firearm for sale here. I am not aware of anyone ever being arrested for transferring a firearm, F to F without an ffl.

You are IN Alaska. The issue here is that the transferor resides in a different state than the transferee. That makes it an interstate transfer, subject to federal law. And federal law says that all interstate transfers must go through a FFL. Long guns can be transferred through an FFL in either state; handguns must be transferred through an FFL in the state of residence of the transferee (recipient).

dogtown tom · January 18, 2024, 07:39 PM

Quote:

HHQ If your dad comes to Ohio and you go to an Ohio ffl, how does the ffl know your father is the legal owner of the firearm?

The same way any gun dealer knows....we don't. There is no federal firearm registration except for NFA firearms. Some dud walk in a nd wants to sell his gun? The dealer has no way to check the ownership. Congress passed a law a year and a half ago that will give FFL's access to the FBI NCIC database of stolen firearms. So far the FBI hasn't moved an inch on that.

Quote:

What do you mean by, "unlicensed"?

"Licensed" means holds a Federal Firearms License.
"Unlicensed" means you don't.

Quote:

Perhaps I'm clueless as I live in Alaska. We buy and sell F to F regularly without involving an ffl. There are websites you can advertise a firearm for sale here. I am not aware of anyone ever being arrested for transferring a firearm, F to F without an ffl.

Because thats not illegal under federal law.

Pathfinder45 · January 26, 2024, 06:45 PM

Here's another vote for doing it legally. There might be other ways of going about it, but jumping through the legal hoops provides you with provenance: Documents that prove ownership without a doubt might prevent seizure under unexpected circumstances and furthermore may help that item to come back to you if it ever gets stolen. It gives you a record that you did it right. Why wouldn't you want that for something so important?

January 15, 2024, 07:13 PM	#4
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,860	Because it was 20 years ago, I'm not sure if this still applies the same way... My Father passed in 2003. He lived in NY. I live in WA. Knowing what was going to happen, I contacted an FFL local to me, and got his information. I went back to NY for the funeral and to help settle some things. My brother lived in NY was the named executor, and still had my Dad's pistols on his permit. We took the guns to an FFL in NY, he contacted my FFL, got the info he needed (copy of receiving FFL license, etc) and shipped three pistols to him. My brother had to deliver the pistols to the NY FFL, as he was the legal possessor, (I paid the shipping and FFL fees) and after the guns arrived at my FFL, I picked them up. I don't have any idea what your state laws may require (if anything) but it seems to me that your Father could take the gun to an FFL where he lives, and have it shipped to an FFL where you live and you could take possession there. (current FFL dealers reading this, please correct me if I'm in error). __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 15, 2024, 10:10 PM	#9
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,860	Is there some reason why Dad going to an FFL in his state and having the gun sent to an FFL in the son's state won't work?? Sure, it costs more than just handing the kid the gun, but it does satisfy all federal requirements, doesn't it?? The point isn't about who would ever know, or how likely you would be to be caught, but about obeying the law, whether or not you personally agree with it, its still the LAW. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 15, 2024, 11:26 AM	#1
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,334	Firearms Transfer between unlicensed family members I thought I had asked this before. My father has an older Ruger Super Blackhawk he would like to gift to me. He lives in MT. I live in OH. We are both unlicensed. We both do not have a disability as defined by the ATF. If we both lived in the same state, I believe he could just hand it to me. He is a ways from passing away. We see each other 2-4 times a year in OH or MT. Is it legal to hand it off in one state or the other? If not, is it legal in one state or the other to do an FFL transfer where we are ftf with the FFL? Is there another way?

January 15, 2024, 12:52 PM	#2
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,899	Federally . . . It has to go through an FFL in the receiver's state. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whom...arms-under-gca i.e., Party #1 can travel to Party #2's state, and both parties vist an FFL there.

January 15, 2024, 08:03 PM	#5
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	Is there really any possibility that criminals are going to do this? The law is burdensome to the law-abiding citizen and ignored by those for whom the law was intended. If a father has a handgun that he purchased 20 years ago, lives in Virginia, and is at a ripe old age he cannot reasonably enjoy using it legally, decides before he dies, to give it to his 50-year-old son who lives anywhere but Virginia, and neither has any history of an unlawful action that would prohibit ownership of either one, why would they go through this burdensome process? Just give it to your son. Who knows? If the son happens to kill someone with it in the future, the son is prosecuted and maybe Dad is underground by then. What is the point of this process?

January 15, 2024, 08:31 PM	#6
P Flados Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2017 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 243	I can only think of one "is there another way". Look up residency rules. Have your Dad "move in with you" long enough to establish residency. He can then give you guns with no paperwork.

January 16, 2024, 06:30 PM	#10
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	So why don't we all simply agree with a law that demands we sell our ARs and any other guns the law doesn't like, to the government?

January 18, 2024, 05:03 PM	#16
HHQ Junior Member Join Date: January 17, 2024 Posts: 10	If your dad comes to Ohio and you go to an Ohio ffl, how does the ffl know your father is the legal owner of the firearm? How long has your dad had this pistol? What do you mean by, "unlicensed"? Perhaps I'm clueless as I live in Alaska. We buy and sell F to F regularly without involving an ffl. There are websites you can advertise a firearm for sale here. I am not aware of anyone ever being arrested for transferring a firearm, F to F without an ffl.

January 26, 2024, 06:45 PM	#19
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	Here's another vote for doing it legally. There might be other ways of going about it, but jumping through the legal hoops provides you with provenance: Documents that prove ownership without a doubt might prevent seizure under unexpected circumstances and furthermore may help that item to come back to you if it ever gets stolen. It gives you a record that you did it right. Why wouldn't you want that for something so important?