45 ACP Light Loads

GaryDZ · June 23, 2009, 05:35 PM

I started reloading this spring. I'm looking for the lightest load for my Kimber 45 to keep recoil to a minimum. Right now I am loading Rainier 200 gr. SWC with 4.7 gr Win231. I have a chronograph and recorded an average of 806 fps with no misfeeds and a tight group when bench shot at 50 ft.

1. Can I keep reducing the powder until my grouping suffers or I get misfeeds?

2. Are there certain powders that have burn characteristics that would minimize recoil?

220combat · June 23, 2009, 05:55 PM

You might get a lighter recoiling load with Bullseye, but I don't know the recepies for 200 grainers. You'll have to refer to a loading guide. To me, 231 needs to be loaded to near max pressures to get a good clean burn.

stratmeister · June 23, 2009, 06:01 PM

Another load to try is 3.8 (to 4.0) gr. of Clays. Light recoil, clean, and very accurate with the 200 gr. LSWC.

scsov509 · June 23, 2009, 07:07 PM

Quote:

1. Can I keep reducing the powder until my grouping suffers or I get misfeeds?

Yes, you can keep reducing the charge until you find a load that will stop cycling the slide reliably and then work up from there. My favorite 45 target loadings in the 600-700 fps range with no reliability problems.

Quote:

2. Are there certain powders that have burn characteristics that would minimize recoil?

For minimal charge and recoil, you want a faster burning powder. Once you start moving to a slower powder, you're going to notice some recoil difference and probably also find that the charge can't be reduced below a certain level without causing inconsistent ignition. For a faster powder you're going to want to try something like Bullseye, Clays, or AA#2. For other options, look at a burn rate chart in your load manual of choice.

darkgael · June 23, 2009, 07:18 PM

The classic Bullseye Match load is 4.0 grains of Bullseye powder and a 200 grain SWC. I need a 12 lb spring in my gun to be 100% reliable (stock is 16 lbs.).
Pete

Slamfire · June 23, 2009, 08:28 PM

This functioned in my Kimber Custom Classic with a 22 lb mainspring.

I asked a Bullseye shooter for a 200 LSWC load, and he said anywhere between 3.8 to 4.1 grs Bullseye.

I suspect the 3.8 grain load would be under 700 fps.

200 LSWC 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed cases CCI300
11-Sep-05 T = 88 °F
Ave Vel = 738.9
Std Dev = 10.34
ES = 37.98
High = = 755.8
Low = 717.8
N = 32

Tex S · June 23, 2009, 08:32 PM

I thought my loads consisting of 5.3gr of 231 were light! I wouldnt want to go any lower though, my loads are pretty darn light! The 231 burns a little dirty at 5.3. I am sure this would worsen at a lower charge.

**Unclenick** · June 23, 2009, 11:14 PM

Tex,

5.3 grains equals about 5.0 grains of Bullseye. That is the original charge used with the 230 grain hardball bullet by the military back around WW I. So you're at full hardball muzzle energy.

If you read about the favorite loads of the old time champions you actually see loads of Bullseye as low as 3.2 grains under the 200 grain H&G 68 design. Recoil springs can be had down to about 8 lbs, and that light load would probably require that and possibly also a lightened slide? The slide needs to be fitted and lapped in order to feed rounds reliably with such a light spring. My series 70 Goldcup with either an 11 or 12 lb spring has no functioning problem with 3.8 grains of Bullseye under a 185 grain LSWC. However, I worked on it extensively, including feed ramp mods that allow it to feed empty cases with no problem.

A couple of things the old timers did differently is they roll-crimped their rounds with the bullet sticking out far enough to headspace the round on the bullet instead of on the case mouth. That makes for improved ignition peak pressure for bumping the action into motion. It's kind of the same effect as using Clays or N310.

Seating the bullet out to headspace on it rather than on the rim can also be done with taper crimped rounds. It improves lead bullet accuracy significantly in my experience, and others on the board who have tried it report reduced leading, as well. The method is arrived at by using the barrel as a gauge as shown below.

GaryDZ · June 23, 2009, 11:19 PM

Thanks everyone for your replies. I am ordering a kit which consists of six recoil springs (8, 10, 12, 15, 17 and 18-1/2 lb). I will be experimenting with different combinations and will let you know what I come up with.

So as long as the gun functions there is no down side to lighter loads? I thought I read somewhere that when the velocity gets lower than 800 fps that the accuracy begins to suffer. Keep in mind that I'm shooting exclusively at 50 ft.

**Unclenick** · June 23, 2009, 11:47 PM

I used to run the 185's at 50 feet in an indoor league. Probably about 700 feet per second. The low pressure burn is weak, so lots of soot and smoke results.

I found my gun did not like 3.5 grains of Bullseye with 185 grain lead (I was shooting swaged Star bullets indoors back then), they had to be 3.8 grains to group. A lighter bullet offers less inertia for the powder to develop pressure against, so I expect the issue is partly powder burn consistency under the low start pressure. I've forgotten what the velocity ES was, if I ever knew? I developed those loads before I had any kind of chronograph, but if I were shooting them today I would expect they varied a fair amount due to irregular burn. Not good at 25 or 50 yards.

The other problem is the recoil spring. If you feel the recoil is alternately mushy or a bit sharp or is mushy all the time, the chances are the slide isn't going all the way back into contact with the frame. That's not good for reliable feeding and the spring should be exchanged for a lighter one.

4.2 grains of Bullseye under a 185 grain JSWC was always given as the equivalent to commercial match loads back then. However, under the 200 grain Hornady JSWC, I found that 4.2 grain charge produced the most accurate .45 ACP load I ever used. Federal 150 primers and Winchester cases were went with it. The group below is five shots fired with that load at 25 yards off a rest using an Aimpoint red dot sight. If you have the actual target in your hand you can see the rings at the edges of the bullet impact points. From those it measures 0.37" center to center. Made a great 50 yard load, too.

In the name of full disclosure, the gun had just been fit up when that target was shot, and probably would not have done quite so well a few thousand rounds later. The fit up was old-school (this was the mid 80's), with barrel lug and extension weld-ups scraped to final fit. The barrel was the original Colt barrel, which was a half thousandth out of round, but that obviously didn't bother it much.

darkgael · June 24, 2009, 01:09 AM

Nick:

Quote:

the 200 grain Hornady JSWC,

That is the bullet that was recommended to me by the late George Madore upon returning my gun to me, having just fit it up. I ended up using the Remington 185 JSWC and 4.9 grains of B'eye for shooting the long line at matches. That was/is an accurate combo out of my gun. I stayed with the 200 gr. LSWCs for sustained fire.
Pete

sourdough44 · June 24, 2009, 06:04 AM

I just chrony'ied some 200 gr Rainier plated RN in a 5" 1911. With 6.0 of H Universal I was averaging around 800fps. These loads all cycled fine in a stock gun. The spread was high, though the charge may of varied from 5.9-6.1. I got from 770-840. I used 1.225 col. There is some room to go higher or lower but I think I'll stay here for target/plinking.

FM-793 · June 24, 2009, 07:42 AM

Gary, I'm partial to Hodgdon powders and shoot a lot of plated bullets as well - both Berry's & Ranier. I've worked up loads with both HS-6 and Clays, and Clays is a great light load powder. HS-6 just isn't as much fun to shoot on the lower end - much dirtier and snappier.

Clays burns cleaner, and was made to deliver a much friendlier recoil profile for long days at the skeet/trap range. My Detonics 9-11-01 absolutely loves 4.3 gr of Clays - that's the load they show on their Reloading Data Center website. It's by far my favorite load, and I find it very accurate with no feed problems.

Jim Watson · June 24, 2009, 08:14 AM

You can safely reduce the load as far as will function the gun.
My minimum load of HP38 (same as W231) is 4.4 grains for a 200 grain bullet. Less gives erratic velocity.

If you want a very light load, calling for a reduced power recoil spring, something besides a Ball process powder will be more consistent. Bullseye, Clays, Solo 1000, and Vihtavuori 310 are good.

Pocketfisherman · June 24, 2009, 11:22 AM

I get great consistency and accuracey with Vitavhouri N310 in 45 ACP. 4.1 gr with the Hornady 185grHP, or 4.5 grs with a 200LSWC.

brickeyee · June 24, 2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:

The method is arrived at by using the barrel as a gauge as shown below.

This method is predicated on the barrel hood having essentially zero clearance in battery to the breech face, something not always present.

Jim Watson · June 24, 2009, 02:51 PM

That is true, but if the gun is that sloppy, variations in the ammunition probably won't matter much.

aerod1 · June 25, 2009, 11:20 AM

200 gr. LSWC over 3.8 gr. of Bullseye works great in my 1911's!

brickeyee · June 25, 2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

That is true, but if the gun is that sloppy, variations in the ammunition probably won't matter much.

Not true since the hood to breech face is not used to determine lockup or headspace.

All it can do is make the headspace larger if it touches before the sides of hte breech face.

Blue · June 26, 2009, 09:05 PM

I have field tried these lite loads with the speer 200gr GDHP bullets and WLP primers. 14 # spring COAL ALL 1.198 - R P90

4.7 gr Tite group 845 fps Medium recoil action functions ok - predictable grouping 25 yds .Ranked second best in this lite test

3.4 gr Bullseye 604 fps will not cycle action - but for single shot and no lost brass - interesting concept. Sort of a single action 45 Auto - quieter than i expected. Kind of a lob 25 yds. If you canfind the paper maybe would be predictable - found paper on 2/5 test rounds.

5.5 gr 231 772 fps cycles action well medium recoil predictable grouping (25 yds) Like the way this worked out. Ranked 1st in this lite test

4 gr Unique 604 fps - cycled action mild recoil , works a little better than bullseye lite. Still a lob shot. Loud.

5.7 gr HS-6 566 fps, almost worked action , lob - not favorite - jams and pinch ejected cases. Lob.

Always check barrel for obstruction after each shot. Check several load manuals to confirm what is here.

Working up lite loads Use single shot only manual load - no magazine feed in case you leave one in the barrel for your gun. Mine cleares all ok - but double checked after each shot.

At the low end the Tite group and 231 had predictable POA. Did not expect 231 to do this well at low end and was surprised. Same with tite group. Did not get complete burn with either one.

Worked up from there with these to since I have several pounds to use of each one. Have other things for for the Bullseye to do and have a pet load at 5.2 gr with the 4478.

Pet with Unique 6.8 gr with the 4478

Always check and follow your manuals to verify where you are at. These loads could have different performance results in your weapon so be cautious.

June 23, 2009, 05:35 PM	#1
GaryDZ Junior Member Join Date: May 24, 2009 Posts: 7	45 ACP Light Loads I started reloading this spring. I'm looking for the lightest load for my Kimber 45 to keep recoil to a minimum. Right now I am loading Rainier 200 gr. SWC with 4.7 gr Win231. I have a chronograph and recorded an average of 806 fps with no misfeeds and a tight group when bench shot at 50 ft. 1. Can I keep reducing the powder until my grouping suffers or I get misfeeds? 2. Are there certain powders that have burn characteristics that would minimize recoil?

June 23, 2009, 07:18 PM	#5
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	light loads The classic Bullseye Match load is 4.0 grains of Bullseye powder and a 200 grain SWC. I need a 12 lb spring in my gun to be 100% reliable (stock is 16 lbs.). Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

June 23, 2009, 11:14 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Tex, 5.3 grains equals about 5.0 grains of Bullseye. That is the original charge used with the 230 grain hardball bullet by the military back around WW I. So you're at full hardball muzzle energy. If you read about the favorite loads of the old time champions you actually see loads of Bullseye as low as 3.2 grains under the 200 grain H&G 68 design. Recoil springs can be had down to about 8 lbs, and that light load would probably require that and possibly also a lightened slide? The slide needs to be fitted and lapped in order to feed rounds reliably with such a light spring. My series 70 Goldcup with either an 11 or 12 lb spring has no functioning problem with 3.8 grains of Bullseye under a 185 grain LSWC. However, I worked on it extensively, including feed ramp mods that allow it to feed empty cases with no problem. A couple of things the old timers did differently is they roll-crimped their rounds with the bullet sticking out far enough to headspace the round on the bullet instead of on the case mouth. That makes for improved ignition peak pressure for bumping the action into motion. It's kind of the same effect as using Clays or N310. Seating the bullet out to headspace on it rather than on the rim can also be done with taper crimped rounds. It improves lead bullet accuracy significantly in my experience, and others on the board who have tried it report reduced leading, as well. The method is arrived at by using the barrel as a gauge as shown below. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 23, 2009, 11:47 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I used to run the 185's at 50 feet in an indoor league. Probably about 700 feet per second. The low pressure burn is weak, so lots of soot and smoke results. I found my gun did not like 3.5 grains of Bullseye with 185 grain lead (I was shooting swaged Star bullets indoors back then), they had to be 3.8 grains to group. A lighter bullet offers less inertia for the powder to develop pressure against, so I expect the issue is partly powder burn consistency under the low start pressure. I've forgotten what the velocity ES was, if I ever knew? I developed those loads before I had any kind of chronograph, but if I were shooting them today I would expect they varied a fair amount due to irregular burn. Not good at 25 or 50 yards. The other problem is the recoil spring. If you feel the recoil is alternately mushy or a bit sharp or is mushy all the time, the chances are the slide isn't going all the way back into contact with the frame. That's not good for reliable feeding and the spring should be exchanged for a lighter one. 4.2 grains of Bullseye under a 185 grain JSWC was always given as the equivalent to commercial match loads back then. However, under the 200 grain Hornady JSWC, I found that 4.2 grain charge produced the most accurate .45 ACP load I ever used. Federal 150 primers and Winchester cases were went with it. The group below is five shots fired with that load at 25 yards off a rest using an Aimpoint red dot sight. If you have the actual target in your hand you can see the rings at the edges of the bullet impact points. From those it measures 0.37" center to center. Made a great 50 yard load, too. In the name of full disclosure, the gun had just been fit up when that target was shot, and probably would not have done quite so well a few thousand rounds later. The fit up was old-school (this was the mid 80's), with barrel lug and extension weld-ups scraped to final fit. The barrel was the original Colt barrel, which was a half thousandth out of round, but that obviously didn't bother it much. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 25, 2009, 11:20 AM	#18
aerod1 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2000 Location: Garland Texas U.S.A. Posts: 734	200 gr. LSWC over 3.8 gr. of Bullseye works great in my 1911's! __________________ NRA Life Member, TSRA Life Member, C&R 03 FFL, Texas LTC Recreational Reloader U.S. Navy Veteran (USS Midway V-1 Division)

June 23, 2009, 05:55 PM	#2
220combat Junior Member Join Date: June 18, 2009 Posts: 12	You might get a lighter recoiling load with Bullseye, but I don't know the recepies for 200 grainers. You'll have to refer to a loading guide. To me, 231 needs to be loaded to near max pressures to get a good clean burn.

June 23, 2009, 06:01 PM	#3
stratmeister Junior Member Join Date: June 22, 2009 Posts: 4	Another load to try is 3.8 (to 4.0) gr. of Clays. Light recoil, clean, and very accurate with the 200 gr. LSWC.

June 23, 2009, 08:28 PM	#6
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	This functioned in my Kimber Custom Classic with a 22 lb mainspring. I asked a Bullseye shooter for a 200 LSWC load, and he said anywhere between 3.8 to 4.1 grs Bullseye. I suspect the 3.8 grain load would be under 700 fps. 200 LSWC 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed cases CCI300 11-Sep-05 T = 88 °F Ave Vel = 738.9 Std Dev = 10.34 ES = 37.98 High = = 755.8 Low = 717.8 N = 32

June 23, 2009, 08:32 PM	#7
Tex S Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: Fort Worth, TEXAS Posts: 909	I thought my loads consisting of 5.3gr of 231 were light! I wouldnt want to go any lower though, my loads are pretty darn light! The 231 burns a little dirty at 5.3. I am sure this would worsen at a lower charge.

June 23, 2009, 11:19 PM	#9
GaryDZ Junior Member Join Date: May 24, 2009 Posts: 7	Thanks everyone for your replies. I am ordering a kit which consists of six recoil springs (8, 10, 12, 15, 17 and 18-1/2 lb). I will be experimenting with different combinations and will let you know what I come up with. So as long as the gun functions there is no down side to lighter loads? I thought I read somewhere that when the velocity gets lower than 800 fps that the accuracy begins to suffer. Keep in mind that I'm shooting exclusively at 50 ft.

June 24, 2009, 06:04 AM	#12
sourdough44 Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: WI Posts: 621	I just chrony'ied some 200 gr Rainier plated RN in a 5" 1911. With 6.0 of H Universal I was averaging around 800fps. These loads all cycled fine in a stock gun. The spread was high, though the charge may of varied from 5.9-6.1. I got from 770-840. I used 1.225 col. There is some room to go higher or lower but I think I'll stay here for target/plinking.

June 24, 2009, 07:42 AM	#13
FM-793 Junior Member Join Date: May 9, 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 11	Gary, I'm partial to Hodgdon powders and shoot a lot of plated bullets as well - both Berry's & Ranier. I've worked up loads with both HS-6 and Clays, and Clays is a great light load powder. HS-6 just isn't as much fun to shoot on the lower end - much dirtier and snappier. Clays burns cleaner, and was made to deliver a much friendlier recoil profile for long days at the skeet/trap range. My Detonics 9-11-01 absolutely loves 4.3 gr of Clays - that's the load they show on their Reloading Data Center website. It's by far my favorite load, and I find it very accurate with no feed problems.

June 24, 2009, 08:14 AM	#14
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	You can safely reduce the load as far as will function the gun. My minimum load of HP38 (same as W231) is 4.4 grains for a 200 grain bullet. Less gives erratic velocity. If you want a very light load, calling for a reduced power recoil spring, something besides a Ball process powder will be more consistent. Bullseye, Clays, Solo 1000, and Vihtavuori 310 are good.

June 24, 2009, 11:22 AM	#15
Pocketfisherman Member Join Date: June 2, 2009 Location: Central TX Posts: 92	I get great consistency and accuracey with Vitavhouri N310 in 45 ACP. 4.1 gr with the Hornady 185grHP, or 4.5 grs with a 200LSWC.

June 24, 2009, 02:51 PM	#17
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	That is true, but if the gun is that sloppy, variations in the ammunition probably won't matter much.

June 26, 2009, 09:05 PM	#20
Blue Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2009 Posts: 113	200 gr Speer GDHP # 4478 lite loads I have field tried these lite loads with the speer 200gr GDHP bullets and WLP primers. 14 # spring COAL ALL 1.198 - R P90 4.7 gr Tite group 845 fps Medium recoil action functions ok - predictable grouping 25 yds .Ranked second best in this lite test 3.4 gr Bullseye 604 fps will not cycle action - but for single shot and no lost brass - interesting concept. Sort of a single action 45 Auto - quieter than i expected. Kind of a lob 25 yds. If you canfind the paper maybe would be predictable - found paper on 2/5 test rounds. 5.5 gr 231 772 fps cycles action well medium recoil predictable grouping (25 yds) Like the way this worked out. Ranked 1st in this lite test 4 gr Unique 604 fps - cycled action mild recoil , works a little better than bullseye lite. Still a lob shot. Loud. 5.7 gr HS-6 566 fps, almost worked action , lob - not favorite - jams and pinch ejected cases. Lob. Always check barrel for obstruction after each shot. Check several load manuals to confirm what is here. Working up lite loads Use single shot only manual load - no magazine feed in case you leave one in the barrel for your gun. Mine cleares all ok - but double checked after each shot. At the low end the Tite group and 231 had predictable POA. Did not expect 231 to do this well at low end and was surprised. Same with tite group. Did not get complete burn with either one. Worked up from there with these to since I have several pounds to use of each one. Have other things for for the Bullseye to do and have a pet load at 5.2 gr with the 4478. Pet with Unique 6.8 gr with the 4478 Always check and follow your manuals to verify where you are at. These loads could have different performance results in your weapon so be cautious.