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Old March 6, 2014, 11:35 PM   #1
Oldbuck30
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Need advice

I've been loading about a year now, pistol only. Just loaded a few 357 mag and went to test fire them. Used Winchester cases, Armscor 158 gr. FMJ RN, and HP 38. First time I have used HP38 in a 357 load, data says 6.2 min. to 6.9 max. Loaded the first group at 6.2. When I shot them (15 of them) had to use a dowel rod to punch the cases out of the cylinder. So next group loaded at 6.0 shot 15 much better coming out of cylinder. Both were accurate. Is going below min. something you might need to do, or bad idea. Is HP 38 wrong powder for 357 mag. Used 2 different scales to check grains of powder to make sure I had not used a bad scale, both were balance beam. The result is fine for me as this will be target loads and I never shoot heavy loads at the range. Please, let me have your opinions. After reading some of your writings for the last 9 months some of you gentleman know your stuff about reloading. Thanks .
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Old March 7, 2014, 10:05 AM   #2
loademwell
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Hmmmm.. I had a similar prob with my 44 mag.... I have a few ideas on what might be the cause.
I don't think that the powder charge is your problem. Do you crimp your rounds? I have heard that some times if the brass is a bit too long and you use a crimp that this could be make the ends of the brass a bit bigger and therefore harder to get out.
Is your brass cleaned?
I'm guessing that this only happens once the gun is fired.. Do you have problems with the live round going into/out of the cylinder without shooting? If so, your dies are out of alignment.
Hope that gives you something to work with....
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Old March 7, 2014, 10:12 AM   #3
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Just pulled out the books for ya on the HP38... I have one in #10 speer reloading handbook.

With 158 HP's and HP38 it says 6.9 to 7.2 grains.

Out of all 6 reloading manuals that I have, that is the only load listed for HP38

Not much help with that info. sorry.
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Old March 7, 2014, 10:23 AM   #4
loademwell
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Found book #7 (Modern Reloading, Lee; 2001 book) it says 5.4 grains ONLY.
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Old March 7, 2014, 10:32 AM   #5
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The Hodgdon web site list a 158g XTP start load is 6.2 g with a COL of 1.580"
Max is listed at 6.9g

Every manual I have list a different load from the web site.
The older the manual the larger the load.

I'd back off 10% and see what ya get.
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Old March 7, 2014, 10:42 AM   #6
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
When I shot them (15 of them) had to use a dowel rod to punch the cases out of the cylinder. So next group loaded at 6.0 shot 15 much better coming out of cylinder.
That is THE classic pressure sign in revolvers. The standard advice is to back off 5% from the point where the cases BARELY stick. Driving them out with a dowel rod is a lot more than "barely".

However, such a significant difference between 6.0 and 6.2 tells me that the charges may not be either correct or consistent though.
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Old March 7, 2014, 10:49 AM   #7
Nick_C_S
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Is HP 38 wrong powder for 357 mag?
Basically, I think it is.

Note: HP38 and Winchester 231 ( a.k.a. "W231" or just "231") are the same powder. Both are made by (or contracted through) Hodgdon.

I love HP38. It's my favorite propellant of all time. If I were forced to load with only one powder, I'd choose HP38. My point is, I'm anything but "anti-HP38."

That said, in my 30 years of loading, I have never had good results with HP38 with 357 Magnum. It tends to pressure spike even with the lighter 125g slugs, much less the heavier 158's. And I've experienced this at starting loads - just like you.

So for me, as a loader, there's a moratorium on HP38/W231 with 357 Mag.

Speaking more generically, I think you should consider moving to a medium speed powder - like AA5 or Unique - for your application. HP38 or not, you're in steep pressure curve territory using any fast powder with the 357/158g combination.
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Old March 7, 2014, 11:03 AM   #8
WESHOOT2
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to help, first

How did the recoil 'feel'?

What do you crimp with, and how hard?

Does that bullet offer a cannelure?

What gun, specifically, were they shot from?

Do you have other powders and/or bullets?
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Old March 8, 2014, 02:24 AM   #9
Oldbuck30
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I have checked

No canellure on these bullets, using a taper crimp Redding Titanium carbide set. They insert into the cylinder of the 357 S&W 19 just fine but stick after firing. If I could find accurate would jump on it same with bullets only other one I'm finding is 125 XTP but might just spend the money and switch to it. I agree with the last comment as to HP38 not being slow enough for 357. Will just not load mags until I can replace it. I went with the load from Hornady off their website to stay up to date rather than written material I have.
Gentleman thank you all for the help, wish the Bum at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave would just STFU, things would get a lot better. As far as consistency after the first group have weighed every powder drop. The pressure indicators I saw worried me.
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Old March 8, 2014, 02:27 AM   #10
Oldbuck30
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Nick, I think you

hit the nail on the head, change powders. I had been using longshot with these bullets about 3000 load worked fine, but ran dry of it. It was a little dirty for me.
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Old March 8, 2014, 09:41 AM   #11
Stavman11
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I have used a LOT of w231 in my .357 loads... primarily Now use it in .38s loads

I used 158gr Bullets in loads upto 7gr.... 7gr was a bit Much, and didnt see any benefit of 6.5gr over 6.1gr... so ended at 6.1gr

So yer Charges are really close...

I would check yer Crimp and case Flair... once loaded do they slide in and out of the cylinder good?
Also have a LOT of .38s been shot through it? May have a lot of buildup from them in the cylinder and makes it tight to remove the fired cases..

I dont think yer issue is the Powder GR's, but I have also had great Luck at 5.6gr of W231 as well......


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Old March 8, 2014, 11:30 AM   #12
Oldbuck30
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Stavman

Thought of that and made sure taper crimp is not too heavy, they slide in cylinder very readily and also a Wilson case gauge, just in and out no tapping. Never fired a 38 in the 19 and I bought it new. I think I have to agree with Nick just too fast a powder for what I'm doing. By the way I forgot to mention primers come out really flat so it is too hot. Second batch I measured each and every load they were all 6.2, only did 6 of them. Now at 5.9/6.0 they are performing better 6 more, but might drop to 5.8 unless some of you say bad idea. If so will just wait until I find other powder. I'm using a Redding competition powder drop and it has been accurate with each powder I've used. Being relatively new I weigh a lot of my drops. Again, thanks everyone.
I think I need to pay more attention to powder speeds and not just use whats listed in books because I can get it.
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Old March 8, 2014, 02:13 PM   #13
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'Fast' powders offers economy, and a bit less recoil from reduced ejecta.
They are not always an ideal choice.

As performance level increases, powder 'speed' should slow......



Good high-performance powders for 'rea'l 357 Magnum include:

-Unique
-Universal (these two are 'faster')
-HS6
-3N37
-N350 (these three are 'mediums')
-2400
-AA9
-N110
-W296
-H110 (these five are 'slow')
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