April 10, 2009, 11:30 PM | #51 | |
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April 11, 2009, 11:28 AM | #52 |
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There's a galaxy of difference it would seem between "reflexive fire" with a carbine and point shooting with a pistol though, both from a training and tactical standpoint.
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April 11, 2009, 12:13 PM | #53 | |
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April 11, 2009, 03:27 PM | #54 |
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I'm not talking about "concept and principles", I'm talking about the actual mechanics of using a rifle vs. a pistol, which are radically different.
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April 11, 2009, 03:31 PM | #55 |
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Sights
If I adjust the rear sight on my P22 to the left, which way will it make my bullet go
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April 11, 2009, 05:45 PM | #56 |
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Left.
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April 11, 2009, 11:52 PM | #57 | |
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April 12, 2009, 07:19 AM | #58 |
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About 14 months ago I trained an 18 year current Army instructor in both rifle and handgun point shooting. ( It was at SouthNarc's range in Miss.)
His job was then to teach the current Army's close range rifle program to the infantry. I commented that what he was teaching with the rifle was very similar to the WW2 long gun point shooting that my dad (who was a WW2 Ranger) taught me. So I guess you can say that the Army is teaching point shooting, at least as an advanced skill. He was very impressed with how easy, simple and accurate handgun point shooting was, especially that it only took a couple of boxes of ammo to get it down pat. You guys can debate here all you want, but until you receive some hands on training, your debates resembles virgins talking about sex. Once again, here is my home study course for those who want to explore this skill. http://kilogulf59.proboards.com/inde...lay&thread=114 PPS..here is his review of our range time together: http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=34500 I spent this last weekend with Matt Temkin, his friend Paul and Southnarc. Southnarc was a great host to all of us! Those of you who are still wondering about the Fairbairn-Sykes/Applegate PS concept, let me tell you: it is valid and it should be a part of any gunmans reportoire. We worked on PS with rifle and pistol; going through the whole of what Matt has been talking about for a while now. For the close fight, which as we all know, is close, quick and violent, these are some of the best techniques I have seen for dealing with a situation of this type. My goal now is to work out for myself where they fit in my bag of tricks along with what I have in there already. Matt also beat me up for a while using the WWII combatives out of "Get Tough" and "Kill Or Get Killed." Yeah, it hurt. But, I'll be showing it to my LTs when I get back to work in a few weeks. It is extremely effective, and isn't the watered down, PC crap that passes for fighting skills these days. I want to thank these guys for letting me hang out with them, and pick their brains for a while. Train with Matt if you get the chance. Just bring lots of ammo, Matt likes to shoot...a lot! __________________ Last edited by matthew temkin; April 12, 2009 at 07:27 AM. |
April 12, 2009, 07:28 AM | #59 |
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Best 7yd shooter I ever saw....
was an Orkin man. He had been on the job 20+ years. I'm not sure how it applies and is probably off topic it's just that reading this thread made me remember. At 7yds he could drill the center with consistency. He said he really didn't 'aim'.
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April 12, 2009, 08:35 AM | #60 | ||
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April 12, 2009, 08:51 AM | #61 | |
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April 12, 2009, 09:03 AM | #62 |
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Not quite,Tutlle8
A better analogy would be if I was blowing off Ayoob's instruction without either training with the man, researching his written/video works or at least training with someone who trained with him. In that case then my opinions on him/his system would not be worth the ink they were printed on. Or, in other words, like a virgin... |
April 12, 2009, 09:21 AM | #63 |
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Which is precisely why I recommend to friends and shooters that if they're interested in learning about Combat Focused shooting, to check out Rob Pincus and ICE Training. Rob's one of the "top flight" trainers out there, and is featured on Outdoor Channel's The Best Defense on Wednesday nights. I'd reckon that if you're interested in learning about threat focused shooting, that you should skip all the internet experts and go train with the best.
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April 12, 2009, 10:15 AM | #64 | |
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Thanks for the insight guys...
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April 12, 2009, 11:01 AM | #65 |
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That really made me a bit depressed, Ahab. We've had to travel every time we wanted to go to a training course. This year we're taking a break from course training to bolster our savings and frankly making sure we're prepared if we become affected by the economy. Then I check out your link to Rob's site and they have a course in Cedar Rapids. That's only just over an hour away. Guess we're going to have to keep a close eye on their course schedule for next year and only hope they come back around.
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April 12, 2009, 03:08 PM | #66 |
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If one is seeking hands on instruction in threat/target focused shooting then Rob Pincus is a good man to go to.
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April 12, 2009, 05:25 PM | #67 |
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Tuttle: that's one of the neat things about Rob's classes is that they move them around the country. It makes it easier for shooters to get access to instruction. In the world of "threat focused" shooting instructors, it pretty much goes Rob Pincus/ICE at the top and then everyone else falls beneath them (some more distantly than others).
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April 12, 2009, 08:09 PM | #68 | |
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My first time in the 360 degree simulator at Front Sight (I think you know what technique they teach there!) I shot the course and afterwards the instructor (who was clipped to the back of my belt) asked if I had looked at the front sight at all during the firing drill. I couldn't remember and he said "You did once, the rest of the time you were point shooting". We scored my targets and I was appalled at some of my shots, marginal hits on targets I could have reached out and touched! Then we came to the hostage target, a bad guy holding a knife to a little boys throat. I had two bullet holes touching between the eyes. The instructor said "This was the only time you looked at your sights". He said because of the difficulty of the shot, with the hostage covering most of the target, I reverted to my good technique because subconsciously I knew I needed to make a difficult shot, the rest of the time I was just reacting to targets popping up, not aiming.
I can see a difference in my groups when I focus on the front sight, when focusing on the target I still can shoot pretty well, but there is no doubt I can be more precise if I focus on the front sight. Quote:
When I train, and I am drawn on a target, the gun is up in my plane of vision or at the low ready but I am looking at the target, giving commands to stop or what have you. I would have a clear view of what the target was doing. When I decide it is now time to shoot the threat, my eyes change focus from the target and now the front sight is my focus, the sights are already lined up, and I take up the slack on the trigger while fine tuning my aim and the gun goes bang, all in a split second. That is what works best for me. |
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April 12, 2009, 09:13 PM | #69 |
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There is also this guy:
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=46506 |
April 12, 2009, 09:24 PM | #70 | |
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Interesting about your 360 degree training results, but I find it hard to beleive you can say with certainty that your hostage kill was front sight. Possible yes, maybe even likely, but accuracy will always increase in that situation because you instinctively take your time (kind of like what the instructor mentioned).
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April 12, 2009, 11:56 PM | #71 | |
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April 12, 2009, 11:57 PM | #72 |
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Don't forget to always carry while you're on the john, Dave. That way if the pizza guy turns out to be a "tango", you can nail him while using your tactical toilet for cover.
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April 13, 2009, 08:51 AM | #73 | |
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Get Off the Toilet! Tactical Toilet Training! Fighting Toilet Skills! Defensive Toilet Training! Introduction to Defensive Toilet! Close Range Toilet Fighting! Toilet Terrorist Interdiction! Toilet Armorer! Toilet Rifle! Advanced Toilet Rifle! Extreme Toilet Rifle! Target Identification from the Toilet: Is it really the pizza dude or is it a terrorist? |
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April 13, 2009, 08:59 AM | #74 |
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Hahaha, thanks for the laughs Dave.
But would you say there are some circumstances where drawing on someone and watching them, not your front sight, is prudent?
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April 13, 2009, 11:12 AM | #75 | |
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