|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
January 9, 2012, 07:19 PM | #1 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
|
What makes some people think all criminals are bad shots?
I've noticed over the years that many posters on TFL and elsewhere, seem to make the assumption that criminals are bad shots and/or firearms handlers.
That they never practice and don't know how to effectively use their weapons. "Lol, he'll be hold'in his gun sideways", "Some guy on drugs with a Saturday Night Special", etc are the type comments I'm referring to. Personally I think that type of assumption is a dangerous one. Below is an excerpt from a blog post I came across recently. It lists some of the common misconceptions. Its pertains mostly to gang members, but its informative nonetheless. Quote:
I remember several years ago watching an installment of 20/20, or maybe Dateline and they were interviewing inner city kids about firearms. One young man, who was all of 12-13 years old produced an S&W Model 60 from concealment. He handled it in a safe manner, even indexing instead of touching the trigger. I don't know how good a shot he was, but from the way he handled his weapon, from 2-5 yards I'd say probably good enough. Anyway I don't want to make this too long, or too boring. I think most readers will get the idea. Not all criminals are bad shots and making that assumption could be fatal.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<) |
|
January 9, 2012, 07:24 PM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 29, 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,097
|
I don't think that. One time I was in Bass Pro and getting ready to use the range and this gangsta type dude walked in. He had a Sig 9mm (I asked), and a dirty box of some brand of ammo I had never seen. He had no eye or ear protection and no range bag to hold the gun or the ammo, he just carried them in his hands.
He talked like a street thug so I am assuming he was one. Plus he had an expensive gun and no case or holster for it!?! I watched him shoot a little and he was a decent shot. I think I was better though.
__________________
My EDC: Gun Wallet Brain (Use this one the most) |
January 9, 2012, 07:24 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 28, 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 400
|
Most gangsters I've ever talked to laugh about the gun sideways thing.
I don't claim to be any sort of firearms expert in any capacity. I also don't allow myself to think that criminals are simply armed idiots with no skill in regards to marksmanship, weapon retention or disarming. Complacency will get you killed |
January 9, 2012, 07:25 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,599
|
I guess they think everyone shoots like them.
|
January 9, 2012, 07:28 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 29, 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,097
|
I also think that stereotype got out because of all of the shootings where innocent people were killed instead of the intended target. All I know is that I have the element of surprise on my side with my CCW should I ever be robbed again.
__________________
My EDC: Gun Wallet Brain (Use this one the most) |
January 9, 2012, 08:00 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: In a state of flux
Posts: 7,520
|
It's the same thing that drives otherwise-intelligent people to say that the "average gunfight only takes three shots three seconds three feet" so they don't need to be prepared for more than that.
In one word: denial. The world is a much more comfortable place when we have all the answers -- and when the answers are all simple ones -- than when we don't, and they aren't. pax |
January 9, 2012, 08:10 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 23, 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,293
|
I would say "some" bad guys can shoot, some bad guys even shoot better than your average cop. The reasons are numerous, some practice, some are naturally good and some are ex-military. IF the bad guys were "all" such good shots, why is it that 10-25% of the victims seem to be innocent bystanders? I would hazard a guess at the bare minimum you have one clueless bad guy for every one who knows how to shoot but realistically it is probably more in the 1-4 or 1-5 range.
|
January 9, 2012, 08:34 PM | #8 |
Member
Join Date: November 13, 2011
Location: Chicagoland, Il
Posts: 35
|
The first time I ever fired a gun was a practice run for a qual that was two days away. It was a modified FLETC pistol course which included weak hand, point shooting, headshots, and barricade shots at 50 feet. I had about an hour of classroom time teaching me about firearm safety and then proceeded to shoot an 86 percent. The next day a 90 and for the qual a 94. (with a G22).
The point is I could have just as easily been born and raised 8 miles to the east and made worse life choices and I'd still be a decent shot. I try to never discount anybody. |
January 9, 2012, 08:39 PM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
|
Sometimes it's oversimplification of a situation, "gun shoot, bad guy dies." Sometimes it's just as Pax said denial, they don't want to think a criminal is good at something. I think a lot of it isn't even denial, I think quite a bit of it comes from the people who think they are better than people/criminals.
Example: I have attended X amount of gun courses, and plan to compete in Y shooting competition. After all of this, I am an amazing shot under pressure and therefore better than a criminal if I need to draw my gun in defense. Instead of worrying about the ability of their opponent, tactics, or anything else, people want to think they are BETTER. In thinking they are better they discount the abilities of a possible opponent. People like to think their training or regular practice makes them a better shot than the "average" person/criminal. Sure, it may, but does it mean you will win? I see this a LOT in martial arts. Some people think their training is better than others, then in a nice sparring match they don't know how to handle it. When we get knife guys sparring you see the cocky ones who think their style is better get destroyed by the person who has better empty hand skills regardless of knife training. They focus on one thing, the knife as a weapon, not the fight, not the tactics, and not the empty hand skills of their opponent. Slashing/stabbing wildly is like just pulling a trigger in a random direction. I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like from here. By tactics I am speaking of situational tactics, cover, concealment, people, escape routes, multiple assailants.
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi [Insert random irrelevant religious quote here] |
January 9, 2012, 08:51 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 4,322
|
2 Infamous USMC Expert Marksmen
Charles Whitman 1966
Lee Harvey Oswald 1963
__________________
Cave illos in guns et backhoes |
January 9, 2012, 09:08 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
|
It is a correlate of when we have a rampage shooting or other gun fight, where our good guy says they will intervene and "Take them out".
Watched folks this weekend launch rounds at IDPA targets at a reasonable distance and miss them, shoot in noncentral areas etc. But on the Internet the Good guy will take them out. It could also be a denial of your own mortality. Don't want to admit that you will not make it out of the fight.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens |
January 9, 2012, 09:18 PM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 22, 2011
Location: OKC
Posts: 502
|
People often forget that video games have evolved over the years and some games actually have a gun shaped controller. Which allows kids, thugs and anyone else with time on their to get good at aiming . Just think about some games from the past that have incorporated this .... Hogans ally and Duck Hunt. Just my .02 worth
|
January 9, 2012, 10:58 PM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 4,453
|
Sure there are some bad guys that are good shots but...
Go look at the police shootout stats. Far more bad guys DIE that cops. And the bad guys get to shoot first many times. No, even with the cops poor hit rates they outshoot the bad guys by a great margin. Deaf
__________________
“To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides |
January 9, 2012, 11:26 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
|
the thugs around here in the freakin boonies grew up shooting their neighbor's cats. I doubt that there are very many bad guys here that have any level of expertise, but i think nearly every criminal raised in this area will be at least capable of aiming and pulling a trigger.
|
January 9, 2012, 11:33 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 7, 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 596
|
Never underestimate the enemy.
|
January 10, 2012, 12:28 AM | #16 |
Member
Join Date: December 29, 2011
Posts: 25
|
My response to an armed enemy would be exactly the same whether i felt he was trained or not, to do otherwise would be retarded. Ive had plenty of training but i would never make the mistake of thinking im a bullet proof superman
the graveyards are filled with men who thought they couldn't die |
January 10, 2012, 06:17 AM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,944
|
I think it's a reasonable assumption there are a lot of bad guys who can't shoot. First, there is a large cross section of any other group in society that can't shoot. Second, bad guys are lazy- otherwise they would have jobs.
Of course, that doesn't mean the guy I run into is going to be untrained, so I'll do everything I can to prepare myself. |
January 10, 2012, 07:02 AM | #18 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 8, 2011
Location: Asturias, Spain
Posts: 328
|
Quote:
Regardless of who he/she is. If it's armed, assume he's the best shot of the world. Period. |
|
January 10, 2012, 08:45 AM | #19 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
I've seen that study before. It's hard for me to believe a lot of it.
First, it's based on "interviews" with criminals. I know plenty of people who AREN'T criminals that embellish every story they ever tell. Yet, we're supposed to believe a bunch of tough guys in jail saying how much they practice and how their not afraid of confronting armed good guys. Second, them not being afraid of the armed good guys is directly contradictory to OTHER interviews/studies with bad guys who say they specifically target people who look weak, unsure or oblivious. If they're not afraid of the armed ones, why target the unarmed? Third, where are these bad guys who "use their firearms in confrontations regularly"? Yes, obviously they exist but any BG who uses their firearms regularly is almost certainly deep, deep inside gang and drug infested neighborhoods of large cities. Large-ish cities near me, Syracuse and Binghamton for example, have fairly regular instances of convenience store or bank robberies. Never do these turn into shoot outs and even in the worst of the bad neighborhoods you're not hearing gunfire on any scale. Syracuse has more than its share of murders but I recall ONE shoot out between rival gang members being publicized. Hardly "regular use in confrontations". The lessons of under estimating the enemy are clear, that doesn't mean they're all Wild Bill just because they brag about it in prison. Train like they're going to be... but they probably aren't. |
January 10, 2012, 09:10 AM | #20 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Less cops do die in fights with bad guys. Of course this is helped made possible by the use of ballistic vests. Since 1987, 3000 cops have been saved by Kelvar. Most of those saves were from ballistic insult. Would we not think bad guys were better shots if there had been 2900+ LEO shooting deaths? http://www2.dupont.com/Kevlar/en_US/...aveslives.html So it isn't just shooting prowess that has cops defeating the bad guys, but also numbers, organization, technology, etc.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
||||
January 10, 2012, 09:33 AM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 9, 2011
Posts: 178
|
Prepare, yes, but ...
In a gunfight, I'd rather be lucky than good.
Fate doesn't care how much you've trained. |
January 10, 2012, 09:44 AM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
I think Pax nailed it; people like simple answers, and they want to reassure themselves.
Others brought up critical points, too. Underestimating the enemy's capabilities is poor tactics, and poor strategy. I don't know any military that preaches the minimization of the enemy's abilities when training. They may try to dehumanize the enemy, so that troops find it easier to pull the trigger, but if anything, they portray the enemy as a monster, not a hamster. Sun Tzu also nailed it. Don't underestimate the enemy; don't overestimate yourself. |
January 10, 2012, 10:10 AM | #23 |
Junior member
Join Date: December 24, 2011
Posts: 212
|
Not sure what happened--my entire post got blown away somehow while I was editing
Last edited by hangglider; January 10, 2012 at 10:49 AM. |
January 10, 2012, 10:11 AM | #24 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
|
|
January 10, 2012, 10:18 AM | #25 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 23, 2002
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 615
|
Quote:
__________________
The plural of anecdote is NOT "data." |
|
|
|