Does having security guards at schools prevent attacks?

[jimpeel]

It sure does in Thailand.

Although this happened in March, the significance of having armed security is clearly shown.

Twelve masked men armed with knives attacked an all-girls school and were immediately driven off by one security guard with a handgun.

If it hadn't been for this man there would have been a slaughter starting with the two girls who failed to run away in the foreground.

SOURCE

VIDEO LINK

This is one for the good guys at which the antis would cringe. Their existence depends on unarmed victims to flaunt in our faces and call for further controls on firearms. Thank God he was there.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

While I think having armed guards is a good thing, I worry that having such is used to argue against campus carry. Note the VT and Columbine had armed guards. They were not immediately present.

You can easily walk into most campuses and kill 30 before help arrives. My point to the TX state House.

Both are a good idea.

[Tom Servo]

The video above is visual proof to the importance of the Second Amendment and the right to protect yourself with a firearm.

Actually, the retort would be to point out (somewhat correctly) that we're equating two completely different situations, in different countries, and with different cultures.

Claiming that an isolated incident in Thailand should influence policy here could lead to some sobering consequences.

[Pahoo]

I've always been in favor of layers of protection and this would fit the bill. Yes it world be a deterrent but there has to be control and discipline. I have not problems with college students and educators, being able to go armed and be trained to use it as needed ....

Be Safe !!!

[Glenn E. Meyer]

To come back to the point, having official guards does not speak to the 2nd Amend. in the USA and antigunners used them as a substitute for the armed citizen.

[sigcurious]

I suspect, and this may be somewhat semantic, that armed guards increase the potential to thwart or counter attacks, rather than prevent them. For example, in the highlighted situation, I would consider prevention the guys not coming armed in the first place. However, I do think it is an important distinction to be clear about if the discussion is occurring with those that have an opposing viewpoint. As a lack of clarity could lead to an increase of talking past each other because the inherent meaning of the concept is being perceived differently.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

While I think having armed guards is a good thing, I worry that having such is used to argue against campus carry. Note the VT and Columbine had armed guards. They were not immediately present.

Correct. Enter the myth of the SRO (School Resource Officer).

Around my corner of the planet, SROs are viewed, and used, and trained, more to be buddies with the students and to set a "positive role model" than to provide protection. In many communities in this region, one SRO may split his/her time between/among two or three different schools. The justification given is, "Well, someone planning an attack won't know when he's there and when he's not." Yeah, right.

Columbine did, indeed, have an SRO. Where was he when the balloon went up? He was outside, eating his lunch in his patrol car. The guy who should have been guarding the gates was put in the position of having to try to fight his way INTO the place where he was supposed to be keeping bad guys OUT of. But ... he was a School Resource Officer, he wasn't viewed as or trained to be security against armed attacks.

Even those schools around here that now (post-Sandy Hook) suddenly have SROs assigned to them, the SRO is not stationed at the main entrance to repel boarders. He or she roams the hallways, doing what SROs do best -- chatting up the students and trying to become buddies.

They ... just ... don't ... get ... it.

[Fishing_Cabin]

Note the VT and Columbine had armed guards. They were not immediately present.

With the single function of what most would feel an armed guard has, there would be only 1 or a few for an average facility, IMO due to budget. Statistics and practicality would also show that they may be there/available a large part of the time, there will always be certain times that they wont be immediately available. The reasons vary from training/sickness/meal-break/restroom/already tied up with another event/etc. Its doubtful that any armed guard program would be properly funded/staffed to satisfy the two sides of: bean counter who wants to get rid of paying someone "just" standing around v. the folks who want 100% available/ready protection. That's why I tend to believe more and more that any armed guard program would typically fail on both sides.

[horatioo]

Cops in schools do cop things, like arrest people. We dont need that. We need schools to do the discipline not police. If you need the police call them, dont have them there looking for work. My opinion for what its worth.

[Double Naught Spy]

Does having security guards at schools prevent attacks?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It sure does in Thailand.

No it doesn't, or rather didn't in this case. As jimpeel correctly pointed out, the attack occurred. It was NOT prevented. Therefore, security did not prevent the attack. Security mitigated the attack.

So sigcurious is right, but the distinction isn't just semantic, but actual.

[Drizzt]

Maybe if the armed guards are the teachers themselves, like in Israel.

[Silver00LT]

No we do not need armed guards at our schools. Why should we live in a police state just to satisfy the illusion of being safe?

Schools have SOPs for safety, and it is up to you as a parent to make sure the school is following them correctly.

Armed guards does not prevent crime. It'll deter it just a little, but will not remove it. I still remember the crap I went through after Columbine. We still had knives in school, beatings, etc. Even though our bags were snatched from us and searched it did not stop any of this from happening. If a person gets the routine down of a armed guard then they know the weaknesses and will bust them wide open.

Do you want your kids growing up in fear? Armed guards cause that and it makes the appearance of a prison school all to real.

[Tom Servo]

Maybe if the armed guards are the teachers themselves, like in Israel.

I've asked around, and the ubiquitous armed Israeli schoolteacher appears to be an exaggeration at best, and a myth at worst.

[Double Naught Spy]

Maybe if the armed guards are the teachers themselves, like in Israel.

Well, only some of the teachers are armed and teachers being armed is only one facet to a more complex set of security involving guards, teachers, metal detectors, etc., that is an extension of a program designed to keep public places safe.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12...ity-in-israel/

SilverOOLT, your comments are rather confused. Yes, schools have SOP safety plans and I don't know of a single school with such a safety plan and no security that will effectively stop a school active shooter. All such plans involving waiting for the cops to arrive and minimally that will take minutes if not 10s of minutes.

Your logic that armed security will have a routine will fail, but that we should let the school rely on its SOP security plan is pretty silly. No, armed guards won't prevent such attacks. Neither with school SOP security plans.

[Silver00LT]

Well, only some of the teachers are armed and teachers being armed is only one facet to a more complex set of security involving guards, teachers, metal detectors, etc., that is an extension of a program designed to keep public places safe.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12...ity-in-israel/

SilverOOLT, your comments are rather confused. Yes, schools have SOP safety plans and I don't know of a single school with such a safety plan and no security that will effectively stop a school active shooter. All such plans involving waiting for the cops to arrive and minimally that will take minutes if not 10s of minutes.

Your logic that armed security will have a routine will fail, but that we should let the school rely on its SOP security plan is pretty silly. No, armed guards won't prevent such attacks. Neither with school SOP security plans.

There is no budget for every school to have an SRO(armed guard). I know my sons school does not have it within budget. My mothers school system just took a multi million dollar cut as well statewide. Also it comes down to when you hire a SRO and pay them minimum wage...what are the chances of you finding every single SRO put their neck on the line to save some one else?

SROs are not the answer. You need people who KNOW the children and are around them other than passing through a door. You get the staff involved in this and find out ways on how to implement safety and protection for each individual class. To fund the lack of monetary needs for an SRO my school just had a LEO come in do a routine walk through speak to the principal and then leave.

A lot of my teachers could tell when a student was about to start trouble, etc.

The solution to have the safety without the expense or prison like environment of a SRO being on school grounds looking for things to do so they are not bored to death are:

• Every teacher must be equipped with knowledge on Active Shooters
• First priority of the teacher is to get children to safety(not have a gun fight with the shooters)
• Have certain dedicated staff trained in firearms and have a firearm easily accessible to them
• Implement local LE to do routine(but not down to the second) walk throughs to show they have a presence
• Have each and every child know their duties during a Active Shooter evacuation(not a Fire drill)

When I am not in direct protection of my children I expect whoever is put in charge has the children's safety put first. I walked into one school and the armed guard was a academy drop out, 300+ lbs and was asleep! I gave him a good chewing and filed a complaint with the school board.

Implementing the staff who are already being paid as being the first responders to a Active Shooter is cost effective, gets everyone involved, has the staff closer with the students.

The problem is directly related to our continue ignorance of mental issues of justing say you're fine I was bullied as a kid tough it out...instead of sitting there and listening to the child. Our children's safety is priority, and that does not mean make the school a prison, remove the rights of law abiding citizens or making everything a police state.

My opinion is going to Elementary, Middle & High School. College I believe a person should have the right to Conceal Carry.

[BigD_in_FL]

Does having security guards at schools prevent attacks?

Does wearing a seatbelt prevent auto accidents?

In either case, the answer is no, but can it help lessen the damage? The answer SHOULD be yes........

[Silver00LT]

Does wearing a seatbelt prevent auto accidents?

In either case, the answer is no, but can it help lessen the damage? The answer SHOULD be yes........

Exactly...sadly from the reports and articles I read the SRO in Columbine did not do anything to further stop the shooters. He stayed outside tending to the wounded while they still ran around shooting.

[Kimio]

Do armed guards Prevent schools from being attacked? Most certainly they do not.

Do armed guards have the potential of deterring, mitigating or thwarting damage caused by said attackers? Yes, of course they do.

The problem is, as many have mentioned before, such guards typically do not function in the "security" manner as we expect them to while being stationed at a school.

Anyone deranged enough will go and commit or at least attempt to commit a crime, regardless of there being an armed guard or not. We are comparing an isolated event, let alone one that occured in another country where cultural differences can make a big difference on how people act/live.

But I digress, it is good that he was able to prevent what could have been a horrible tragedy.

[+1k ammo]

You can easily walk into most campuses and kill 30 before help arrives

Both, Both, Both.

Look at Banks and gas stations on the S. side (bad parts Chicago) - security guards all day long. It is just a deterrent though. Things still happen, but much less if a guy with a gun is standing around.

I would put one at the door of every darn school in this country. Even a school of 700 like my 4th grade daughter - the one guy at the desk knows what is going on in that school better than the principle - who you never see.

What if something were to happen. I would want my daughter protected by him over anyone else, not the principle, not the cops - although there is a training facility for Police kitty corner to the school so I don't worry too much - but the point is that you need an interaction at the moment. Not from 911 frantic calls after too late.

[Double Naught Spy]

Exactly...sadly from the reports and articles I read the SRO in Columbine did not do anything to further stop the shooters. He stayed outside tending to the wounded while they still ran around shooting.

And SRO training, police response, etc. has changed explicitly because of the your beloved school SOP security program which held that the SRO do exactly that. He did exchange shots with the shooters, but he aided the wounded and helped coordinate the arrival of the police, who also stood around and secured the perimeter of the school...SOP for the time. The SRO performed very well for the SOP program of the time, which is now considered outdated.

Using Columbine as an example of today's school SRO programs is about like using the DC10 to epitomize commercial airline flight today. It is out of date.

A lot of my teachers could tell when a student was about to start trouble, etc.

Okay, list the attacks where teachers knew there was about to be trouble and reported it. It didn't happen at Columbine, UT, VT, Appalachia Law School, Pearl, NIU, Thurston High School, Westside Middle School, Cleveland Elementary School, Sandyhook, CSU Fullerton, Lindhurst High School, Amish school, etc.

Sure, lots of people claim they knew "there would be trouble" AFTER THE FACT, but don't see to say much about it beforehand. Also for all those feelings that there would be trouble, the notion is either so vague as to be actionably useless, or nothing comes to pass.

The notion that having armed guards protect the school makes it like a prison, but having armed teachers somehow doesn't is preposterous. Either way, you have armed security. To say one is a police state and the other isn't is just plain silly.

[Patriot86]

In my mind, this is coming from someone who is not a LEO or ex-mil, having a single guard who sets at a desk all day is of minimal value. Its some level of deterrent but it would be easy for a determined attacker or attackers to take out that single guard in a static post.

To have some real effect in stopping/minimizing shootings you need multiple guards on random patrols around campus. That keeps any would be attackers on edge because around every corner is potentially an armed threat. The threat can come from any direction and the threat exists the moment you make yourself known.

Mind you, I think you get more bang for your buck by training and arming teachers. The "threat" to the bad guys is much more hidden, you have no idea how many and which teachers are armed. Beyond that, armed threats to the bad guy will not stand out (in uniform).

A single security guard at a desk is better than nothing, two or three guards patrolling a school is better but IMO the most cost effective and difficult to counter solution is an armed school official.

[mayosligo]

If we stopped posting gun free zone signs it would be a step in the right direction. After that layers of protection is what is needed. Regular patrols, trained teachers able to carry if they choose to, plus a periodic guard. The idea is to make the potential killer think about possible armed resistance as opposed to a shooting gallery of easy targets.

[Double Naught Spy]

Not really, mayosligo. Such shootings happen regardless of whether the zone is gun free or not. School, business, and home mass shootings occur because that is where the shooter had a problem or believed a problem to exist. The same holds for several had in public locations. Single-triple shootings (so not classified as being mass shootings) happen all over as well. If you are out for revenge, regardless of the consequences, or just have a death wish and want to be on the news, then police, security, and armed teachers are pretty meaningless to you.

[Silver00LT]

Okay, list the attacks where teachers knew there was about to be trouble and reported it. It didn't happen at Columbine, UT, VT, Appalachia Law School, Pearl, NIU, Thurston High School, Westside Middle School, Cleveland Elementary School, Sandyhook, CSU Fullerton, Lindhurst High School, Amish school, etc.

Sure, lots of people claim they knew "there would be trouble" AFTER THE FACT, but don't see to say much about it beforehand. Also for all those feelings that there would be trouble, the notion is either so vague as to be actionably useless, or nothing comes to pass.

The notion that having armed guards protect the school makes it like a prison, but having armed teachers somehow doesn't is preposterous. Either way, you have armed security. To say one is a police state and the other isn't is just plain silly.

You named all the cases where SROs or armed staff did not work. However, that being said the cases were armed students and staff STOPPED a shooting is far longer.

[sigcurious]

However, that being said the cases were armed students and staff STOPPED a shooting is far longer.

It is?