Here's SHORTY!! pics

deerslayer303 · February 21, 2012, 09:56 AM

I picked up my Cabela's .58cal Hawken Carbine this morning! Couple of questions. This was a consignment rifle, so I didn't get any paperwork. I went to Investarms website and looked at the manual. The show a .560 round ball and a max of 110grs of FFg. But no patch info. Any Ideas of a patch size? And I hope I can even find .560 round ball, all I have seen is .575. And from the pic, is that a nipple for a musket cap? Sure looks to big for a #11. I'm gonna try round ball and Maxi ball out of it. What size maxi ball also?

This thing should be a blast to shoot! And I'll bet it will knock the snot out of a whitetail.

Lee McNelly · February 21, 2012, 10:42 AM

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=329426&page=2

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm

Beagle333 · February 21, 2012, 10:58 AM

That thing looks impressive! I think you can forget having to track anything you shoot with that. It ain't gonna run, but it might slide a few feet, directly away from you.

dlbarr · February 21, 2012, 01:07 PM

I'll bet that nipple is for musket caps. You can swap it out for a #11 nipple.

If you can find that .560 rb, I'd try .020" patches with your fav lube. Look at track of the wolf website, they have a large selection of ML ammo and molds.

Beagle333 · February 21, 2012, 07:23 PM

I didn't see a .560 ball. Track of the Wolf and Midwayusa have .570 balls.

I'm trying to learn about the .58 cal things, because now I want one too! That thing looks awesome.

Gbro · February 21, 2012, 07:42 PM

I will second dlbarr in changing the nipple to use #11 caps.
I don't believe there is a quality musket cap on the market.
What I mean by this is a foil backed cap like the #11's.

Hellgate · February 21, 2012, 07:57 PM

On mine I put a musket cap nipple so I can use the same cap for all 4 of the .58 cals. I happen to have several tins of the musket caps from a few years ago. The bore size on those Hawkens is the largest of all my other .58s so a .570 ball might be just right and the .560 be a little small.

dlbarr · February 21, 2012, 08:11 PM

Try a .010" patch with the .570s....or maybe .012-.015". If you have a micrometer, you can take it to your local fabric store and get a few different sizes of cotton material and see which one does best for you.

Dino. · February 23, 2012, 10:01 AM

deerslayer, that's awesome.

Just curious ... if one were to cut down a black powder rifle shorter than 16", would it be classified as a SBR and require a Federal Tax Stamp?

hoytinak · February 23, 2012, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Just curious ... if one were to cut down a black powder rifle shorter than 16", would it be classified as a SBR and require a Federal Tax Stamp?

Ya know, I've often wondered the same thing?

deerslayer303 · February 23, 2012, 03:28 PM

I don't really think I would want one shorter than this one. I'm itching to shoot it and see just what its all about. This black powder thing is WORSE THAN DRUGS!!!

HellGate, can you post up some of your load data for your .58's. I think I will start at 90grs a .570 ball and a .010 patch.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · February 23, 2012, 04:28 PM

If indeed it is 58 caliber. 575 ball would require nothing more that a .10 ths size patch. 570 ball would require a patch 15-18-ths and would also require trying each patch with many different Charges for best accuracy. Thompson Center did make at one time a 56 caliber smooth bore Renegade. It was kind of a dual purpose rifle being a shotgun if need be? and a smooth bore rifle too. Using a 56 caliber ball would be to small to use in a 58 caliber barrel I would think? I don't suggest doing so. I've never tried myself. As I do have a 58 caliber T/C Big Bore Renegade myself. And remember the 58 caliber rifled barrel was designed to use a #11 Cap not a musket cap. Musket caps were intended for musket rifles. Some guys changed out their #11 nipples to a muskets nipple in hoping to get a better/hotter ignition. But, doing so it really isn't necessary if your using the correct powder designed for this specific caliber (2-FF Gorex Black Powder or Pyrodex RS ) would be preferred. Good luck,

P.Script: Don't expect this short barreled weapon to be a long distance game getter. Be happy to hit a 5" target consistently at 40 yards if your able too.

Lee McNelly · February 23, 2012, 05:16 PM

MIDSOUTH HAD RB AVAIL OTHER HAD improved MINNIE BALL

dlbarr · February 23, 2012, 05:17 PM

Regarding ball size & patch thickness, within reason any number of combinations has potential to work well. If you want to shoot a .560 rb from a .58 cal, simply use a thicker patch. This combination, if it shoots well from your firearm, also has the added advantage of likely being much easier to load as the patch will "fill in" the rifling grooves. As an example, my .54 loads much easier with a .520 rb & .020 patch than it does using a .530 & .010 patch. The accuracy results are very comparable.

I know a number of guys who prefer a smaller ball/thicker patch combination for the above reasons. BTW, you might want to check the Muzzleloader Mag forum....there are lots of threads of this type over there.

Willie Sutton · February 23, 2012, 05:28 PM

"Just curious ... if one were to cut down a black powder rifle shorter than 16 inches would it be classified as a SBR and require a Federal Tax Stamp?"

They are not defined as a "Firearm" under federal law and thus the NFA does not apply to it.

Witness the Howdah Pistols being offered... they are essentially sawed off shotguns, but being muzzle loaded are exempt from the NFA.

Willie

.

Lee McNelly · February 23, 2012, 06:16 PM

Why a musket nipple TRY IT U MAY LIKE IT

bore or breech need scraped

does something need drilled out

whats the use of smaller ball and larger patch id stick w 575 rb or r e a l or improved minnie

deerslayer303 · February 23, 2012, 08:24 PM

I don't know why it has a musket nipple on it. I think it was just the PO's preference, the bore breech and flash hole / clean out on this thing is absolutely perfect and clean. When I got it I ran a patch down it and it came out clean, then peering down it with a bore light its perfect, I'll get a stainless nipple for it.

dlbarr · February 23, 2012, 10:16 PM

deerslayer, I've been told that musket caps are significantly hotter than #11s. I actually put one on my T/C and it worked fine...I can't say that it performed any better than the standard nipple & #11 caps, however. I just wanted to give it a try. I suspect that's what the other guy did who owned your gun before you.

Hellgate · February 23, 2012, 11:06 PM

Deerslayer,
The following loads are not recommended. They did not blow my guns up. YMMV. The Zouave has taken two deer (one lengthwise on the diagonal, minie exited). The Musketoon penetrated a cow elk broadside, she dropped. I would suggest you try the musket nipple before replacing it unless you have no access to decent musket caps then go with the #11s. All my 58s have the musket nipple. The big caps are easier to find and put on in cold weather. I have not worked up a match load. All my loads were for hunting deer or elk here in Orygun (phonetic spelling) so they are heavy recoiling. I have a slip-on shotgun recoil pad on the Musketoon as it is small like your gun. The minies are all heavy skirted for heavy loads. Thin skirted loads are better for light target loads. These loads are from my shooting notebook. Lube is 50/50 bees wax & lard rubbed into grease grooves only. Note the varying ranges and groups. All were at different times & weather not recorded. These worked for me. YMMV.

Zouave (Zoli): Lyman 575213-OS(Old Style) minie + 90grs FFFg Goex (3/4" group@50yds)

Musketoon: Lyman 577611 minie + 90grs FFFg Goex (4" group@100yds)

Buffalo Hunter (sporterized Zoli Zouave): 110gr 5FA (3F size blasting powder)+.570 ball+"Slick Load" CVA patch (one hole group 25yds)

St. Louis Hawken (Investarms) rifle: Lyman 575213-OS minie+90grs FFg Goex (1.5" group@50yds)
Lyman 577611 minie+ 100gr FFg (3/4" group@50yds)
LEE R.E.A.L. 90grs 5FA (all touching@25yds)
LEE R.E.A.L. 100grs 5FA (all touching@25yds)

sandman_nv · February 23, 2012, 11:15 PM

Quote:

I don't really think I would want one shorter than this one. I'm itching to shoot it and see just what its all about. This black powder thing is WORSE THAN DRUGS!!!

you will find no intervention here!

very nice buy!

Sure Shot Mc Gee · February 24, 2012, 01:14 PM

DeerSlayer303: Do you happen to know its twist rate? As some of these little carbines came with a fast-twist-rate? Being European made? Finding out its twist-rate is most important to know. As doing so, will disclose the type of projectile this carbine was designed to shoot accurately. Not everything for your (Caliber) seen in the market place or suggested by others will shoot well. Best to check first. Just might save you some money and disappointment at the range. And you are right. Smoke Poles are a whole different breed. When I got my first one. I was totally surprised how awesome the fire power these rifles are capable of. That our ancestor carried along during their time in history.

P.Script: In the T/C book that came with my 58 Big Bore. It says the Maxi Ball produced by T/C and sold to their consumers weighed in at >555 grains. And the Maxi-Hunter weighed in at 560-grs.
Lots of lead thrown down range no-doubt-about-it!!

Lee McNelly · February 24, 2012, 02:24 PM

1 48

Hawg · February 24, 2012, 03:35 PM

Try the .570 ball with different patch thicknesses. It's a lot harder to work up a good round ball load. I'd start with the .570 and a .010 patch with 90 grains of powder. I'd imagine your best load to be with a tight fitting .018 patch and somewhere around 110-120 grains of powder. Just have to burn some powder and see what it likes.

dlbarr · February 24, 2012, 05:36 PM

The 1:48 twist is supposed to be a "compromise" rate that works respectably with both round ball and slug-type projectiles. All calibers have a "perfect" rate of twist and I used to know the formula/equation for figuring that out but have long since forgot it. I do know this: 1:48 is the perfect rate of twist for shooting a prb out of a .40 cal.

That being said, Hawg's suggestion to start with the .570 & .010 patch is a good one and work from there. I've never shot that much BP behind a RB and it seems a bit overkill....my suspicion is that you'll blow a fair amout of unburned powder out the end of that short barrel. I'd think 90 gr of 2Fg would be sufficient but that's only MHO.

As an aside, I've never had any success with the maxi-ball or maxi-hunter projectiles. I do have a 1:28 twist green mountain barrel for my T/C and it likes Barnes Bullets TMZ real well! Those are an all copper bullet (just finally approved for hunting in my state, WA) and make that barrel a real tack-driver. Unfortunately, I don't believe they come in .58...only .45 & .50, I think. Sorry, this has nothing to do with the thread, I got carried away and wanted to brag a little I guess.

Hawg · February 24, 2012, 08:29 PM

Yeah I wasn't thinking about the short barrel.

I actually use a 90 grain load out of my 33 inch barreled Hawken.

February 21, 2012, 10:42 AM	#2
Lee McNelly Junior member Join Date: June 9, 2011 Posts: 325	INFO http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=329426&page=2 http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm Last edited by Lee McNelly; February 21, 2012 at 11:56 AM.

February 21, 2012, 07:42 PM	#6
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	I will second dlbarr in changing the nipple to use #11 caps. I don't believe there is a quality musket cap on the market. What I mean by this is a foil backed cap like the #11's. __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

February 21, 2012, 07:57 PM	#7
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	On mine I put a musket cap nipple so I can use the same cap for all 4 of the .58 cals. I happen to have several tins of the musket caps from a few years ago. The bore size on those Hawkens is the largest of all my other .58s so a .570 ball might be just right and the .560 be a little small. __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)

February 23, 2012, 04:28 PM	#12
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	If indeed it is 58 caliber. 575 ball would require nothing more that a .10 ths size patch. 570 ball would require a patch 15-18-ths and would also require trying each patch with many different Charges for best accuracy. Thompson Center did make at one time a 56 caliber smooth bore Renegade. It was kind of a dual purpose rifle being a shotgun if need be? and a smooth bore rifle too. Using a 56 caliber ball would be to small to use in a 58 caliber barrel I would think? I don't suggest doing so. I've never tried myself. As I do have a 58 caliber T/C Big Bore Renegade myself. And remember the 58 caliber rifled barrel was designed to use a #11 Cap not a musket cap. Musket caps were intended for musket rifles. Some guys changed out their #11 nipples to a muskets nipple in hoping to get a better/hotter ignition. But, doing so it really isn't necessary if your using the correct powder designed for this specific caliber (2-FF Gorex Black Powder or Pyrodex RS ) would be preferred. Good luck, P.Script: Don't expect this short barreled weapon to be a long distance game getter. Be happy to hit a 5" target consistently at 40 yards if your able too. Last edited by Sure Shot Mc Gee; February 24, 2012 at 01:20 PM.

February 23, 2012, 05:16 PM	#13
Lee McNelly Junior member Join Date: June 9, 2011 Posts: 325	MOULDS MIDSOUTH HAD RB AVAIL OTHER HAD improved MINNIE BALL

February 21, 2012, 09:56 AM	#1
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,653	Here's SHORTY!! pics I picked up my Cabela's .58cal Hawken Carbine this morning! Couple of questions. This was a consignment rifle, so I didn't get any paperwork. I went to Investarms website and looked at the manual. The show a .560 round ball and a max of 110grs of FFg. But no patch info. Any Ideas of a patch size? And I hope I can even find .560 round ball, all I have seen is .575. And from the pic, is that a nipple for a musket cap? Sure looks to big for a #11. I'm gonna try round ball and Maxi ball out of it. What size maxi ball also? This thing should be a blast to shoot! And I'll bet it will knock the snot out of a whitetail.

February 21, 2012, 10:58 AM	#3
Beagle333 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: Auburn, AL. Posts: 2,332	That thing looks impressive! I think you can forget having to track anything you shoot with that. It ain't gonna run, but it might slide a few feet, directly away from you.

February 21, 2012, 01:07 PM	#4
dlbarr Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2011 Posts: 162	I'll bet that nipple is for musket caps. You can swap it out for a #11 nipple. If you can find that .560 rb, I'd try .020" patches with your fav lube. Look at track of the wolf website, they have a large selection of ML ammo and molds.

February 21, 2012, 07:23 PM	#5
Beagle333 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: Auburn, AL. Posts: 2,332	I didn't see a .560 ball. Track of the Wolf and Midwayusa have .570 balls. I'm trying to learn about the .58 cal things, because now I want one too! That thing looks awesome.

February 21, 2012, 08:11 PM	#8
dlbarr Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2011 Posts: 162	Try a .010" patch with the .570s....or maybe .012-.015". If you have a micrometer, you can take it to your local fabric store and get a few different sizes of cotton material and see which one does best for you.

February 23, 2012, 10:01 AM	#9
Dino. Junior member Join Date: November 2, 2006 Posts: 908	deerslayer, that's awesome. Just curious ... if one were to cut down a black powder rifle shorter than 16", would it be classified as a SBR and require a Federal Tax Stamp?

February 23, 2012, 03:28 PM	#11
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,653	I don't really think I would want one shorter than this one. I'm itching to shoot it and see just what its all about. This black powder thing is WORSE THAN DRUGS!!! HellGate, can you post up some of your load data for your .58's. I think I will start at 90grs a .570 ball and a .010 patch.

February 23, 2012, 05:17 PM	#14
dlbarr Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2011 Posts: 162	Regarding ball size & patch thickness, within reason any number of combinations has potential to work well. If you want to shoot a .560 rb from a .58 cal, simply use a thicker patch. This combination, if it shoots well from your firearm, also has the added advantage of likely being much easier to load as the patch will "fill in" the rifling grooves. As an example, my .54 loads much easier with a .520 rb & .020 patch than it does using a .530 & .010 patch. The accuracy results are very comparable. I know a number of guys who prefer a smaller ball/thicker patch combination for the above reasons. BTW, you might want to check the Muzzleloader Mag forum....there are lots of threads of this type over there.

February 23, 2012, 05:28 PM	#15
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	"Just curious ... if one were to cut down a black powder rifle shorter than 16 inches would it be classified as a SBR and require a Federal Tax Stamp?" They are not defined as a "Firearm" under federal law and thus the NFA does not apply to it. Witness the Howdah Pistols being offered... they are essentially sawed off shotguns, but being muzzle loaded are exempt from the NFA. Willie .

February 23, 2012, 06:16 PM	#16
Lee McNelly Junior member Join Date: June 9, 2011 Posts: 325	INQUIRY Why a musket nipple TRY IT U MAY LIKE IT bore or breech need scraped does something need drilled out whats the use of smaller ball and larger patch id stick w 575 rb or r e a l or improved minnie Last edited by Lee McNelly; February 23, 2012 at 10:39 PM.

February 23, 2012, 08:24 PM	#17
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,653	I don't know why it has a musket nipple on it. I think it was just the PO's preference, the bore breech and flash hole / clean out on this thing is absolutely perfect and clean. When I got it I ran a patch down it and it came out clean, then peering down it with a bore light its perfect, I'll get a stainless nipple for it.

February 23, 2012, 10:16 PM	#18
dlbarr Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2011 Posts: 162	deerslayer, I've been told that musket caps are significantly hotter than #11s. I actually put one on my T/C and it worked fine...I can't say that it performed any better than the standard nipple & #11 caps, however. I just wanted to give it a try. I suspect that's what the other guy did who owned your gun before you.

February 23, 2012, 11:06 PM	#19
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	Deerslayer, The following loads are not recommended. They did not blow my guns up. YMMV. The Zouave has taken two deer (one lengthwise on the diagonal, minie exited). The Musketoon penetrated a cow elk broadside, she dropped. I would suggest you try the musket nipple before replacing it unless you have no access to decent musket caps then go with the #11s. All my 58s have the musket nipple. The big caps are easier to find and put on in cold weather. I have not worked up a match load. All my loads were for hunting deer or elk here in Orygun (phonetic spelling) so they are heavy recoiling. I have a slip-on shotgun recoil pad on the Musketoon as it is small like your gun. The minies are all heavy skirted for heavy loads. Thin skirted loads are better for light target loads. These loads are from my shooting notebook. Lube is 50/50 bees wax & lard rubbed into grease grooves only. Note the varying ranges and groups. All were at different times & weather not recorded. These worked for me. YMMV. Zouave (Zoli): Lyman 575213-OS(Old Style) minie + 90grs FFFg Goex (3/4" group@50yds) Musketoon: Lyman 577611 minie + 90grs FFFg Goex (4" group@100yds) Buffalo Hunter (sporterized Zoli Zouave): 110gr 5FA (3F size blasting powder)+.570 ball+"Slick Load" CVA patch (one hole group 25yds) St. Louis Hawken (Investarms) rifle: Lyman 575213-OS minie+90grs FFg Goex (1.5" group@50yds) Lyman 577611 minie+ 100gr FFg (3/4" group@50yds) LEE R.E.A.L. 90grs 5FA (all touching@25yds) LEE R.E.A.L. 100grs 5FA (all touching@25yds) __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell) Last edited by Hellgate; February 24, 2012 at 12:38 AM.

February 24, 2012, 01:14 PM	#21
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	DeerSlayer303: Do you happen to know its twist rate? As some of these little carbines came with a fast-twist-rate? Being European made? Finding out its twist-rate is most important to know. As doing so, will disclose the type of projectile this carbine was designed to shoot accurately. Not everything for your (Caliber) seen in the market place or suggested by others will shoot well. Best to check first. Just might save you some money and disappointment at the range. And you are right. Smoke Poles are a whole different breed. When I got my first one. I was totally surprised how awesome the fire power these rifles are capable of. That our ancestor carried along during their time in history. P.Script: In the T/C book that came with my 58 Big Bore. It says the Maxi Ball produced by T/C and sold to their consumers weighed in at >555 grains. And the Maxi-Hunter weighed in at 560-grs. Lots of lead thrown down range no-doubt-about-it!! Last edited by Sure Shot Mc Gee; February 24, 2012 at 01:43 PM.

February 24, 2012, 02:24 PM	#22
Lee McNelly Junior member Join Date: June 9, 2011 Posts: 325	RATE 1 48

February 24, 2012, 03:35 PM	#23
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Try the .570 ball with different patch thicknesses. It's a lot harder to work up a good round ball load. I'd start with the .570 and a .010 patch with 90 grains of powder. I'd imagine your best load to be with a tight fitting .018 patch and somewhere around 110-120 grains of powder. Just have to burn some powder and see what it likes.

February 24, 2012, 05:36 PM	#24
dlbarr Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2011 Posts: 162	The 1:48 twist is supposed to be a "compromise" rate that works respectably with both round ball and slug-type projectiles. All calibers have a "perfect" rate of twist and I used to know the formula/equation for figuring that out but have long since forgot it. I do know this: 1:48 is the perfect rate of twist for shooting a prb out of a .40 cal. That being said, Hawg's suggestion to start with the .570 & .010 patch is a good one and work from there. I've never shot that much BP behind a RB and it seems a bit overkill....my suspicion is that you'll blow a fair amout of unburned powder out the end of that short barrel. I'd think 90 gr of 2Fg would be sufficient but that's only MHO. As an aside, I've never had any success with the maxi-ball or maxi-hunter projectiles. I do have a 1:28 twist green mountain barrel for my T/C and it likes Barnes Bullets TMZ real well! Those are an all copper bullet (just finally approved for hunting in my state, WA) and make that barrel a real tack-driver. Unfortunately, I don't believe they come in .58...only .45 & .50, I think. Sorry, this has nothing to do with the thread, I got carried away and wanted to brag a little I guess.

February 24, 2012, 08:29 PM	#25
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Yeah I wasn't thinking about the short barrel. I actually use a 90 grain load out of my 33 inch barreled Hawken.