Am I being too demanding?

2DaMtns · December 16, 2008, 08:59 PM

I am a reloading newbie, and am currently only relaoding for 357/38. I am concentrating on forming good technique, as I plan to start loading 308 and 280 around the first of the year, and obviously little inconsistencies will show up alot more at 100+ yards than it will at 25-100 (I am loading for an 1894c in addition to my GP100). I realize that the longer I do it, the more efficient I will get (to a point), but it is taking me along time to load these rounds. I haven't timed it yet, but it's taking what I feel is too long. My main problem is charging the cases. I bought the RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme kit, and the powder meaure is not being very reliable. I finally get it set to discharge the set amount of powder, but I am still weighing every single charge, and I am finding inconsistencies in the charge ranging in the 0.1-0.2 grains either way. I have started setting the powder charge at 0.2 grains low and using a powder trickler, but it's not a fast process. Granted, I could upgrade to a progressive press, but I can't do that just yet. Also, I researched kits and the reloading process for several months prior to buying this kit, so I didn't just jump into this with a single stage press and assume I could start out by cranking out 500 rounds an hour or anything unrealistic.

Anyway, is this amount of deviation standard for this powder measure, is it possibly defective, do I need to change something about my technique? Any ideas are appreciated. I won't mind the time investment as much when I start loading the rifles, but all I can think of right now is that if I go out with my 357's and shoot a couple hundred rounds, I am out a lot of time, maybe too much. Thanks in advance.

Stumper · December 16, 2008, 09:11 PM

Different measures handle different powders somewhat differently. Charges of coarse powders often vary by a tenth of a grain even with a good measure (and for general use it truly doesn't matter-precisely weighed charges and those that are plus or minus a tenth often group the same and show no better or worse in velocity variations when cronographed). Plus or minus 2 tenths is a bit much in small charges-try a different measure or switch to a finer granulated powder that meters better in what you have.

2DaMtns · December 16, 2008, 09:16 PM

Thanks Stumper, that makes sense. I was loading Blue dot first, and now I am working up some with 2400, which looks much finer than the Blue Dot, but seems to vary more in the charges thrown by the measure. But good to know on the 0.1 grain tolerance. I didn't think it would hurt with my revolver, and probably not out to 100-125 yards with my carbine, but I was a little concerned about the longer range with the larger/faster calibers. Just for S&G's, does anyone know what the tolerances are with most factory loads as far as powder weight? Obviously I want to do better than factory, but it would be a good number to use as a benchmark.

jaguarxk120 · December 16, 2008, 09:17 PM

The RCBS powder measure is a very good one, many times it is the smoothness of the operator that makes for accurate powder drops. With the variations you have your very close. Your variations are due to the type of powder you are metering through the measure. Ball powders flow very well, flak powders can bridge or clump, stick powders will be cut as the drum moves to drop the charge.

A .2 gr. variation on a very small charge can be some concern, but on a 20gr. charge it's no problem. Make your operating stroke one smooth movement, not jerky. Good luck

2DaMtns · December 16, 2008, 09:22 PM

Yeah, I have been trying to be very consistent with all aspects, but especially the measure stroke. I had read somewhere to gently "clack" the handle at the top and bottom of the stroke to ensure all the powder drops out of the measure, but I may load the next 50 without doing that to see if I get more consistent charges.

sserdlihc · December 16, 2008, 09:35 PM

I was having a similar problem with my Lee perfect powder measure. I was using unique powder. So I ran a couple of hoppers full of powder thru it. It seemed to work. I weighed every 5th charge and it was throwing accurately then.

Tuzo · December 16, 2008, 09:41 PM

When I loaded using either a Herter's or Redding measure I gave the measure a slight tap on the loading and charging strokes. This method developed over time (did not tap at first) and resulted in more consistent measures. Checked every tenth round for powder weight with errors ranging from 0.1 to 0.5. Any error grater than 0.1 resulted in remeasuring the previous ten rounds. This applied to rifle and pistol loading. However, when loading for greater powder weight consistency I used the measure, scale, and trickler for each round.

Now I use a very fast and consistent RCBS Little Dandy powder measure for small pistol loading and, welcome to the modern age, an RCBS ChargeMaster 1500 for everything else. Used to check every 10th powder charge from the ChargeMaster with my balance beam and quickly discovered that there was no need for that check. My two powder measures, two balance beam scales, and trickler are boxed in storage.

Nnobby45 · December 16, 2008, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Anyway, is this amount of deviation standard for this powder measure, is it possibly defective, do I need to change something about my technique? Any ideas are appreciated. I won't mind the time investment as much when I start loading the rifles, but all I can think of right now is that if I go out with my 357's and shoot a couple hundred rounds, I am out a lot of time, maybe too much. Thanks in advance.

When using a powder measure, it's imparative to use a powder that meters well and gives consistent charges. There's more to it than that, however. The way you operate the powder measure must be consistent each time. It must be operated the same way.

Some double tap it on the upstroke feeling that this settles the powder (I do). The stroke that drops the powder must feel smooth. If there's a slight hitch, then dump it back and re-do it. The proper way, IMO, is to put, say, 50 cases in the loading block and run each under the funnel and drop the powder using the CONSISTENT stroke I'm trying to emphasize. Get that rhythm going.

When done: Visual check each one to make sure you didn't DOUBLE charge, or fail to charge one. Don't let yourself get interuppted. Just hold the tray in one hand and pass each rd. under the measure funnel--one row at a time.

Note: Make sure the measure is SOLIDLY secured to the bench.

A deviation from min. to max. charge of .2gr. isn't too bad, since each extreme only represents a .1 deviation from average. A .2 deviation from avg. in either direction would be unacceptable with something like W231 or TiteGroup, but not as critical (though I wouldn't like it) with slower burning Blue Dot, or 2400.

Start saving up for that Dillon. 100 rds. in 20 minutes isn't even challenging, and the charge bar is consistent to .1 gr. Even so, some powders meter much better than others, even on the progressive.

amamnn · December 16, 2008, 10:10 PM

IMHO, any Alliant flake powder is a potential squib round waiting to happen, especially if you are trying to consistently drop small charges. You're wise to check EVERY drop using that powder. The only way I would trust charges of their powders was to run them trough a digital scale/dispenser. Most of the pistol/shotgun powders will bridge easily as compared to rifle powders, but I have had much less trouble with Winchester and Hodgon HS powders.

Erring on the side of safety is never wrong. If you find the process to be slow, remember that you are crafting a custom built round for your firearm-- which is going to be vastly superior to a mass produced one size fits all "product" from a robotic factory.

arizona98tj · December 17, 2008, 12:01 AM

I've loaded more rounds using Hercules (now Alliant) than any other powder I've used, starting back in the 70's. I wish I had a nickle for every target load of Bullseye I shot in both my .45 and .38 back then. I also used Unique, Red Dot, and Blue Dot in the RCBS powder measure that I still have. These days, I primarily load 9mm and .45ACP with my 650 using Unique in both.

In all the cartridges I've loaded with flake powders, I've never had a squid or double charge. I see no reason why valid and reliable reloading procedures should fail when using these powders. If they do, there is, IMHO, something wrong with the process one is implementing. If one feels that failure is bound to happen because of the powder type, then by all means, use something else....too often, perception can become reality.

Sevens · December 17, 2008, 12:40 AM

One thing to keep in mind as you see deviations is that you are already using a powder that's not known for easy metering... the fact that it's a large flake powder makes it tougher for any measure to drop a perfectly consistent charge. One thing that I do to try and combat this when I use Blue Dot (and I do, often!) is to take out the small diameter pistol chamber and instead, use the large diameter rifle chamber. I find that this helps to give a more consistent drop with flake powders.

The other thing to keep an eye on is your scale technique-- there's always the chance that your powder drops are less than 0.1 grain off, but your measuring leaves something to be desired. Beam scale or digital? Scale zeroed properly? If digital, is it calibrated and allowed to warm up? Fresh batteries? And a big one-- is your scale in the range of a heat register or other draft of air source?

Maybe pick up a can of AA#5 or AA#7 and see how consistently you can drop these spherical powders, and how consistently you can measure them.

kametc · December 17, 2008, 01:06 AM

Flake powders are tricky to measure for sure. Blue dot and 2400 both are excellent powders for the .357. Ball powders such as Win 296 are a dream to measure. You can charge 100 cases in about 5 min.

Ken

Tim R · December 17, 2008, 01:10 AM

A couple of things that might help. Take a dryer sheet and rub it all over the inside of the throw. Then take a pound of powder and run it though the throw. Don't cheat and run the measuring rod down to throw the most amount of powder.

Are you using a large powder drum or the small one. RCBS used to supply both drums but I think they stopped doing this. You might give RCBS a call.

The Uniflow really is a good powder throw and once you get the hang of it, runs with the best.

snuffy · December 17, 2008, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Am I being too demanding?

I'd say yes. As a 40+ yr. loader, I don't sweat the minor variations like you're seeing. You'd never be able to see a difference on target from the variations you're seeing.

I don't consider blu-dot or 2400 to be LARGE flake powders. Now Unique IS a large flake powder. It doesn't meter well through most measures, it won't even do well through my pact digital dispenser.

TEDDY · December 17, 2008, 05:01 PM

the factory loads dont do any better.I set my measure check it and never weigh the charges again.I load 38 on a green machine with 700X.what comes out of the measure is what comes out.It got me a lot of medals.my 45 acp on Lee 1000 is done the same way.and the 1000 has lees powder measure.
I don't load to maxim.I dont need to have a big bang my biggest cal is 45 colt
thats pistols I like red dot for my rifles with lead bullets.
have a good day.

2DaMtns · December 17, 2008, 05:03 PM

All good tips, and much appreciated. To answer some of the questions in the above posts, I am using the RCBS 5-0-5 scale, and I check the zero before every use, re-check it before I move up or down in charge weight, and often check in the middle of a session if I find I am getting more variation than I think is acceptable. I have everything positioned away from drafts, as far as I am aware. I have not tried the dryer sheet trick or using the larger rifle attachement on the measure, I will try these. I am also going to lift the scale up on something so the lines are at eye level and I don't have to bend down and squint at it. I bought some more primers and a new batch of bullets, so I am gonna load up some more tomorrow and then head out to the range on Friday to see what my results are.

Thanks again folks.

December 16, 2008, 08:59 PM	#1
2DaMtns Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Posts: 457	Am I being too demanding? I am a reloading newbie, and am currently only relaoding for 357/38. I am concentrating on forming good technique, as I plan to start loading 308 and 280 around the first of the year, and obviously little inconsistencies will show up alot more at 100+ yards than it will at 25-100 (I am loading for an 1894c in addition to my GP100). I realize that the longer I do it, the more efficient I will get (to a point), but it is taking me along time to load these rounds. I haven't timed it yet, but it's taking what I feel is too long. My main problem is charging the cases. I bought the RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme kit, and the powder meaure is not being very reliable. I finally get it set to discharge the set amount of powder, but I am still weighing every single charge, and I am finding inconsistencies in the charge ranging in the 0.1-0.2 grains either way. I have started setting the powder charge at 0.2 grains low and using a powder trickler, but it's not a fast process. Granted, I could upgrade to a progressive press, but I can't do that just yet. Also, I researched kits and the reloading process for several months prior to buying this kit, so I didn't just jump into this with a single stage press and assume I could start out by cranking out 500 rounds an hour or anything unrealistic. Anyway, is this amount of deviation standard for this powder measure, is it possibly defective, do I need to change something about my technique? Any ideas are appreciated. I won't mind the time investment as much when I start loading the rifles, but all I can think of right now is that if I go out with my 357's and shoot a couple hundred rounds, I am out a lot of time, maybe too much. Thanks in advance.

December 16, 2008, 09:11 PM	#2
Stumper Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 438	Different measures handle different powders somewhat differently. Charges of coarse powders often vary by a tenth of a grain even with a good measure (and for general use it truly doesn't matter-precisely weighed charges and those that are plus or minus a tenth often group the same and show no better or worse in velocity variations when cronographed). Plus or minus 2 tenths is a bit much in small charges-try a different measure or switch to a finer granulated powder that meters better in what you have. __________________ "Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." Theodore Roosevelt "If only God has magic, how does Santa get down the chimney?" Natalie Peters age 4

December 16, 2008, 10:10 PM	#9
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	IMHO, any Alliant flake powder is a potential squib round waiting to happen, especially if you are trying to consistently drop small charges. You're wise to check EVERY drop using that powder. The only way I would trust charges of their powders was to run them trough a digital scale/dispenser. Most of the pistol/shotgun powders will bridge easily as compared to rifle powders, but I have had much less trouble with Winchester and Hodgon HS powders. Erring on the side of safety is never wrong. If you find the process to be slow, remember that you are crafting a custom built round for your firearm-- which is going to be vastly superior to a mass produced one size fits all "product" from a robotic factory. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

December 17, 2008, 12:01 AM	#10
arizona98tj Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 980	I've loaded more rounds using Hercules (now Alliant) than any other powder I've used, starting back in the 70's. I wish I had a nickle for every target load of Bullseye I shot in both my .45 and .38 back then. I also used Unique, Red Dot, and Blue Dot in the RCBS powder measure that I still have. These days, I primarily load 9mm and .45ACP with my 650 using Unique in both. In all the cartridges I've loaded with flake powders, I've never had a squid or double charge. I see no reason why valid and reliable reloading procedures should fail when using these powders. If they do, there is, IMHO, something wrong with the process one is implementing. If one feels that failure is bound to happen because of the powder type, then by all means, use something else....too often, perception can become reality. __________________ stu-offroad.com Largest Jeep TJ project site on the web! (now with guns)

December 17, 2008, 12:40 AM	#11
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	One thing to keep in mind as you see deviations is that you are already using a powder that's not known for easy metering... the fact that it's a large flake powder makes it tougher for any measure to drop a perfectly consistent charge. One thing that I do to try and combat this when I use Blue Dot (and I do, often!) is to take out the small diameter pistol chamber and instead, use the large diameter rifle chamber. I find that this helps to give a more consistent drop with flake powders. The other thing to keep an eye on is your scale technique-- there's always the chance that your powder drops are less than 0.1 grain off, but your measuring leaves something to be desired. Beam scale or digital? Scale zeroed properly? If digital, is it calibrated and allowed to warm up? Fresh batteries? And a big one-- is your scale in the range of a heat register or other draft of air source? Maybe pick up a can of AA#5 or AA#7 and see how consistently you can drop these spherical powders, and how consistently you can measure them. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

December 16, 2008, 09:16 PM	#3
2DaMtns Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Posts: 457	Thanks Stumper, that makes sense. I was loading Blue dot first, and now I am working up some with 2400, which looks much finer than the Blue Dot, but seems to vary more in the charges thrown by the measure. But good to know on the 0.1 grain tolerance. I didn't think it would hurt with my revolver, and probably not out to 100-125 yards with my carbine, but I was a little concerned about the longer range with the larger/faster calibers. Just for S&G's, does anyone know what the tolerances are with most factory loads as far as powder weight? Obviously I want to do better than factory, but it would be a good number to use as a benchmark.

December 16, 2008, 09:17 PM	#4
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	The RCBS powder measure is a very good one, many times it is the smoothness of the operator that makes for accurate powder drops. With the variations you have your very close. Your variations are due to the type of powder you are metering through the measure. Ball powders flow very well, flak powders can bridge or clump, stick powders will be cut as the drum moves to drop the charge. A .2 gr. variation on a very small charge can be some concern, but on a 20gr. charge it's no problem. Make your operating stroke one smooth movement, not jerky. Good luck

December 16, 2008, 09:22 PM	#5
2DaMtns Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Posts: 457	Yeah, I have been trying to be very consistent with all aspects, but especially the measure stroke. I had read somewhere to gently "clack" the handle at the top and bottom of the stroke to ensure all the powder drops out of the measure, but I may load the next 50 without doing that to see if I get more consistent charges.

December 16, 2008, 09:35 PM	#6
sserdlihc Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2008 Location: S.C. Posts: 1,454	I was having a similar problem with my Lee perfect powder measure. I was using unique powder. So I ran a couple of hoppers full of powder thru it. It seemed to work. I weighed every 5th charge and it was throwing accurately then.

December 16, 2008, 09:41 PM	#7
Tuzo Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 797	Tap the measure When I loaded using either a Herter's or Redding measure I gave the measure a slight tap on the loading and charging strokes. This method developed over time (did not tap at first) and resulted in more consistent measures. Checked every tenth round for powder weight with errors ranging from 0.1 to 0.5. Any error grater than 0.1 resulted in remeasuring the previous ten rounds. This applied to rifle and pistol loading. However, when loading for greater powder weight consistency I used the measure, scale, and trickler for each round. Now I use a very fast and consistent RCBS Little Dandy powder measure for small pistol loading and, welcome to the modern age, an RCBS ChargeMaster 1500 for everything else. Used to check every 10th powder charge from the ChargeMaster with my balance beam and quickly discovered that there was no need for that check. My two powder measures, two balance beam scales, and trickler are boxed in storage.

December 17, 2008, 01:06 AM	#12
kametc Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2007 Location: S W , Montana Posts: 206	Flake powders are tricky to measure for sure. Blue dot and 2400 both are excellent powders for the .357. Ball powders such as Win 296 are a dream to measure. You can charge 100 cases in about 5 min. Ken __________________ "Allons" Blackhorse Troopers !

December 17, 2008, 01:10 AM	#13
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	A couple of things that might help. Take a dryer sheet and rub it all over the inside of the throw. Then take a pound of powder and run it though the throw. Don't cheat and run the measuring rod down to throw the most amount of powder. Are you using a large powder drum or the small one. RCBS used to supply both drums but I think they stopped doing this. You might give RCBS a call. The Uniflow really is a good powder throw and once you get the hang of it, runs with the best. __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

December 17, 2008, 05:01 PM	#15
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	picky the factory loads dont do any better.I set my measure check it and never weigh the charges again.I load 38 on a green machine with 700X.what comes out of the measure is what comes out.It got me a lot of medals.my 45 acp on Lee 1000 is done the same way.and the 1000 has lees powder measure. I don't load to maxim.I dont need to have a big bang my biggest cal is 45 colt thats pistols I like red dot for my rifles with lead bullets. have a good day.

December 17, 2008, 05:03 PM	#16
2DaMtns Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Posts: 457	All good tips, and much appreciated. To answer some of the questions in the above posts, I am using the RCBS 5-0-5 scale, and I check the zero before every use, re-check it before I move up or down in charge weight, and often check in the middle of a session if I find I am getting more variation than I think is acceptable. I have everything positioned away from drafts, as far as I am aware. I have not tried the dryer sheet trick or using the larger rifle attachement on the measure, I will try these. I am also going to lift the scale up on something so the lines are at eye level and I don't have to bend down and squint at it. I bought some more primers and a new batch of bullets, so I am gonna load up some more tomorrow and then head out to the range on Friday to see what my results are. Thanks again folks.