Lee FCD and COL

oldmansbike · July 8, 2011, 04:00 PM

I just started loading for 38 sp on my Lee Classic turret. New to hand gun loading.I got it all set up acorrding to the instructions. I am trying to get a COL of 1.440. I set the bullet seating die to seat at that depth but when I run it through the FCD the COL runs from 1.423 clear up to 1.458. Is that difference anything to worry about? I am loading a 158 gr LRNFP behind 2.8 gr of Clays in mixed headstamp brass. Would case length be the cause of this? I measured some cases and they are not all the same. Thanks

**Unclenick** · July 8, 2011, 05:11 PM

Well, I think I see your problem. You've got the bullet behind the powder, but it's supposed to be the other way around.

Seriously, though, that's a bit too much COL variation. It will affect pressure some. Sounds like the bullet is slipping. Does the bullet have a crimp groove? If so, you want a roll crimp (not taper) to fix the bullet in that position. In that case, with a crimp groove available, you may do better with the crimper built into the seater die, as it will constrain the bullet position while the case mouth rolls into that groove a little bit. You could then finish in the CFCD die. You could also check to be sure you have a roll rather than a taper crimp ring in your die. It should be roll by default, but Lee can provide both.

I think if you measured the cases with a ball-end micrometer, you'd find difference in the wall thickness as well as the length difference you've already found. Trimming them all to the same length (even if it's on the short side) is necessary for the crimp action to be consistent, but the thickness will affect that, too, so you want to sort by headstamp in addition to uniforming the length if you are trying for a critical target load. If not, don't bother sorting.

hAkron · July 8, 2011, 08:01 PM

If there is a crimp groove on the bullet then that is your COL. With revolver rounds you roll crimp on the crimp groove. Obviously if the COL is much different on you bullet than what is specified in the load data then your pressure will be different than the load data. Semi auto is a bit different. Your COL is determined by the gun or guns for which you will use the rounds as the chamber length will vary from gun to gun.

Magnum Wheel Man · July 11, 2011, 03:55 PM

my understanding, a Lee FCD is a collet type crimp die that will crimp grooves into even a copper jacket bullet... & it shouldn't be seating your bullets at all...

maybe the problem is actually with the seating die... are your rounds varrying in length before you run them through the crimp die ???

wncchester · July 11, 2011, 04:56 PM

The .38 Spec. is a modest pressure cartridge and seating depth is not critical or sensitive. And your load is a light one so the small differences in OAL wll be meaningless.

Your Lee FCD is not a collet crimper but it's still an excellant one. All you need to do with that load is 'crimp' it enough to remove the mouth flare, a deeper crimp would be meaningless and can potentially harm the accuracy of such a light load.

PawPaw · July 11, 2011, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnum Wheel Man

my understanding, a Lee FCD is a collet type crimp die that will crimp grooves into even a copper jacket bullet...

Don't confuse the FCD for rifle and the FCD for pistol. They're two different animals.

The rifle FCD is a collet type crimp die that never even touches the bullet. The pistol FCD has a plug, not unlike a bullet seating plug and will push the bullet if the crimp is set too tight. What I like about the pistol FCD is that it has a carbide ring in the base of the die that post-sizes the cartridge to ensure smooth feeding, but you've got to make sure that you don't have the crimp button screwed down too far.

Magnum Wheel Man · July 11, 2011, 05:19 PM

Thanks for clairification... I use a couple FC dies for straight wall cases ( like 45-70 ) I thought the pistol dies were the same... I didn't mess with my 38 special FCD much but perhaps it's not needed for me to follow seating with my old RCBS die... I'm disapointed actually, as I'm using a bullet with no crimp groove, & bought the Lee die to isure I had a good crimp for my lever action...

either way, double crimped, I'm getting consistent COL, & my carbine likes the load, groups are much better than just acceptable

**Unclenick** · July 11, 2011, 10:04 PM

Actually, when you look close, the names aren't the same for the two types of FCD. For the pistol types, Lee puts the word "Carbide" in front of FCD. So really there's the FCD and the CFCD.

I understand there are now some of the collet types (FCD) being made for shorter cases. That was the actual limiting factor for it. They couldn't make the original below a certain length, probably due to how long the collet fingers needed to be to flex properly. Now they seem to have worked a way around it, so you could ask them what shorter cases you can get it for now.

chris in va · July 11, 2011, 10:25 PM

I have to use a FCD with my lead 9mm. It does tend to squeeze the bullet out a bit if I don't keep an eye on things.

oldmansbike · July 12, 2011, 05:29 PM

I went to crimping with the seating die and my OAL are staying the same now with the 158 gr bullet. I am now having trouble with the 125 gr LRNFP. The manual calls for OAL of 1.445. If I seat it at the crimp groove I get an OAL of 1.375. Will that difference in OAL hurt anything? I am loading these for Ruger Vaquaros and an 1866 lever action rifle. Loading for handguns is new to me so I'm trying to be careful with every step I do. I have loaded for shotgun and rifle but they don't seem this complicated.

Magnum Wheel Man · July 12, 2011, 05:50 PM

you'll be fine as long as they clear your forcing cone with a little to spare in the revolvers... the rifle should handle magnum length cartridges, so no issues there...

EDIT... sorry actually the revolvers should be chambered for the 357 magnum as well so you should be good to go...

**Unclenick** · July 13, 2011, 10:25 AM

It depends on the load. Seating deeper raises peak pressure, so you don't want to seat a bullet deeper over a maximum load. But if these are mild loads, there's no damage hazard from a small change. However, it can still affect velocity and bullet bump up. So be prepared that you may need to reduce the charge a little bit to get identical velocity performance. A chronograph will tell you if it has changed significantly.

totaldla · July 13, 2011, 02:16 PM

I wish I had the picture, but the FCD for pistol is more like a modified roll crimp. "modified" in the sense that it really isn't all that sensitive to brass length. It produces a superior crimp to any roll crimp I've used. I don't think the crimp strength is important on 38spl, but it sure is on 44 mag used in a 329.

July 8, 2011, 04:00 PM	#1
oldmansbike Member Join Date: February 19, 2010 Posts: 22	Lee FCD and COL I just started loading for 38 sp on my Lee Classic turret. New to hand gun loading.I got it all set up acorrding to the instructions. I am trying to get a COL of 1.440. I set the bullet seating die to seat at that depth but when I run it through the FCD the COL runs from 1.423 clear up to 1.458. Is that difference anything to worry about? I am loading a 158 gr LRNFP behind 2.8 gr of Clays in mixed headstamp brass. Would case length be the cause of this? I measured some cases and they are not all the same. Thanks

July 8, 2011, 05:11 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Well, I think I see your problem. You've got the bullet behind the powder, but it's supposed to be the other way around. Seriously, though, that's a bit too much COL variation. It will affect pressure some. Sounds like the bullet is slipping. Does the bullet have a crimp groove? If so, you want a roll crimp (not taper) to fix the bullet in that position. In that case, with a crimp groove available, you may do better with the crimper built into the seater die, as it will constrain the bullet position while the case mouth rolls into that groove a little bit. You could then finish in the CFCD die. You could also check to be sure you have a roll rather than a taper crimp ring in your die. It should be roll by default, but Lee can provide both. I think if you measured the cases with a ball-end micrometer, you'd find difference in the wall thickness as well as the length difference you've already found. Trimming them all to the same length (even if it's on the short side) is necessary for the crimp action to be consistent, but the thickness will affect that, too, so you want to sort by headstamp in addition to uniforming the length if you are trying for a critical target load. If not, don't bother sorting. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 11, 2011, 03:55 PM	#4
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	my understanding, a Lee FCD is a collet type crimp die that will crimp grooves into even a copper jacket bullet... & it shouldn't be seating your bullets at all... maybe the problem is actually with the seating die... are your rounds varrying in length before you run them through the crimp die ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

July 11, 2011, 05:19 PM	#7
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	Thanks for clairification... I use a couple FC dies for straight wall cases ( like 45-70 ) I thought the pistol dies were the same... I didn't mess with my 38 special FCD much but perhaps it's not needed for me to follow seating with my old RCBS die... I'm disapointed actually, as I'm using a bullet with no crimp groove, & bought the Lee die to isure I had a good crimp for my lever action... either way, double crimped, I'm getting consistent COL, & my carbine likes the load, groups are much better than just acceptable __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

July 11, 2011, 10:04 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Actually, when you look close, the names aren't the same for the two types of FCD. For the pistol types, Lee puts the word "Carbide" in front of FCD. So really there's the FCD and the CFCD. I understand there are now some of the collet types (FCD) being made for shorter cases. That was the actual limiting factor for it. They couldn't make the original below a certain length, probably due to how long the collet fingers needed to be to flex properly. Now they seem to have worked a way around it, so you could ask them what shorter cases you can get it for now. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 8, 2011, 08:01 PM	#3
hAkron Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 318	If there is a crimp groove on the bullet then that is your COL. With revolver rounds you roll crimp on the crimp groove. Obviously if the COL is much different on you bullet than what is specified in the load data then your pressure will be different than the load data. Semi auto is a bit different. Your COL is determined by the gun or guns for which you will use the rounds as the chamber length will vary from gun to gun.

July 11, 2011, 04:56 PM	#5
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	The .38 Spec. is a modest pressure cartridge and seating depth is not critical or sensitive. And your load is a light one so the small differences in OAL wll be meaningless. Your Lee FCD is not a collet crimper but it's still an excellant one. All you need to do with that load is 'crimp' it enough to remove the mouth flare, a deeper crimp would be meaningless and can potentially harm the accuracy of such a light load.

July 11, 2011, 10:25 PM	#9
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	I have to use a FCD with my lead 9mm. It does tend to squeeze the bullet out a bit if I don't keep an eye on things.

July 12, 2011, 05:29 PM	#10
oldmansbike Member Join Date: February 19, 2010 Posts: 22	I went to crimping with the seating die and my OAL are staying the same now with the 158 gr bullet. I am now having trouble with the 125 gr LRNFP. The manual calls for OAL of 1.445. If I seat it at the crimp groove I get an OAL of 1.375. Will that difference in OAL hurt anything? I am loading these for Ruger Vaquaros and an 1866 lever action rifle. Loading for handguns is new to me so I'm trying to be careful with every step I do. I have loaded for shotgun and rifle but they don't seem this complicated.

July 12, 2011, 05:50 PM	#11
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	you'll be fine as long as they clear your forcing cone with a little to spare in the revolvers... the rifle should handle magnum length cartridges, so no issues there... EDIT... sorry actually the revolvers should be chambered for the 357 magnum as well so you should be good to go... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

July 13, 2011, 10:25 AM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	It depends on the load. Seating deeper raises peak pressure, so you don't want to seat a bullet deeper over a maximum load. But if these are mild loads, there's no damage hazard from a small change. However, it can still affect velocity and bullet bump up. So be prepared that you may need to reduce the charge a little bit to get identical velocity performance. A chronograph will tell you if it has changed significantly. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 13, 2011, 02:16 PM	#13
totaldla Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2009 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 1,294	I wish I had the picture, but the FCD for pistol is more like a modified roll crimp. "modified" in the sense that it really isn't all that sensitive to brass length. It produces a superior crimp to any roll crimp I've used. I don't think the crimp strength is important on 38spl, but it sure is on 44 mag used in a 329. __________________ Lee Auto Bench Prime Castor Oil Case Lube