An honest debate on why our carry cartridge needs power

[Breadslinger]

This quote is from an FBI report written in 1989 regarding the optimum sidearm caliber for LEO's. I found it on another forum and was impressed enough that I wrote it down. However, I failed to write down the name of the report. IMO this statement has validity.
"Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

[threegun]

Breadslinger, It is acceptable if you don't expect to have to actually fire the gun.

Which points me toward yet another hypocritical practice. Putting bullets in a puny calibered carry gun. If your reason for making the choice to carry puny is based on the small probability of actually needing to fire the weapon it is hypocritical thinking to load that weapon. Is this incorrect.

[longcoldwinter]

Why is it whenever the small caliber debate comes up someone always comes up with the stupid reply of "well if your going by the odds, you might as well not load it". I mean really, you should be able to come up with something better then that.

No one considers not loading your carry gun as a vaild option

[JohnKSa]

If your reason for making the choice to carry puny is based on the small probability of actually needing to fire the weapon it is hypocritical thinking to load that weapon.

Your arguments all seem to be based on taking actual facts and then isolating them and carrying them to such extremes (in the total absence of other contributing factors) that they become ridiculous. That doesn't prove anything other than, perhaps, your creative ability.

Caliber has a CHANCE to make a difference in perhaps 1 in 10 self-defense gun uses. That's what the stats say. They don't say it makes NO difference, they say that most of the time no one gets shot and therefore in those cases where no one is shot caliber can't possibly make a difference.

Those stats clearly are not a rationale for leaving your gun unloaded because SOME of the time (maybe in 1 out of 10 cases) you actually DO have to shoot. They don't tell you that caliber is meaningless because logic tells us that in at least some of the cases that make up the 10% of the time when the gun is fired caliber CAN have an effect.

Ok, the next step is obviously trying to determine what happens in actual shootings.

I've quoted this document repeatedly, but here it is again. In the FBI's document on handgun wounding and effectiveness the author speculates that in actual shootings, caliber might make a difference in 1% of shootings. He's talking about comparing service calibers, as you move significantly above or below that power level the significance of caliber selection obviously increases.

Again we find that while caliber CAN make a difference, it makes FAR less difference than the general public believes. The author makes the point that even a large bullet from a powerful handgun will destroy far less than 1% of the tissue in a human body--just a few ounces. Clearly the REAL issue is not whether 0.05% is destroyed vs 0.045% but rather WHICH 0.05% is destroyed.

The point isn't that caliber makes NO difference, the point is twofold. Caliber means nothing about 90% of the time. In the remaining 10% of the time it sometimes makes a small difference but not nearly as much difference as shot placement makes.

The moral isn't that you should ignore caliber altogether, it's not that you should leave your gun unloaded, it's that you should place the PROPER emphasis on caliber and the proper emphasis on shooting skills. The bottom line is that all the "caliber" in the world won't do anything if you can't make hits, but if you CAN make good hits then nearly any caliber will do the trick.

Once a shooter is making good hits in good time then he might want to consider trying to get the little bit of edge that a larger caliber might provide some of the time--as long as it doesn't hurt him significantly in the areas that matter more.

[Stumper]

John, You are dangerously reasonable and logical.

[JohnKSa]

You are dangerously reasonable and logical.

It's a blessing...and a curse.

[Socrates]

John, you aren't that good.

Caliber CAN make a difference, even if the gun isn't used. In a carry gun, a stainless bore, and a 45 caliber hole generally make a greater impression then my 22 short Beretta would.

Same theory as looking down the barrel of a shotgun...

I certainly would not want to find out if Lee Jurras' .500 Howdah was as effective on humans as it was on game....

I would think a view of this barrel, from the business end, might well deter even the highest of punks...

[Deaf Smith]

Not really. Let's have 10 gunfights. 9 of them occur at 5 feet, 1 is at 155 feet. The average (your definition) distance in the fights is 20 feet, but 9 (90%) are inside the average while only one (10%) is outside. That is why the median is important for, as Glenn put it, understanding "actual distributional properties".

These figures were the FBIs, so I dunno. I suspect there were a heck of a lot more than 10 gunfights david.

Which points me toward yet another hypocritical practice. Putting bullets in a puny calibered carry gun. If your reason for making the choice to carry puny is based on the small probability of actually needing to fire the weapon it is hypocritical thinking to load that weapon. Is this incorrect.

Something like what Jeff Cooper said about .25 autos and weither to keep them loaded or not. In fact, why not just use a plastic gun if most usages of guns never fire a round. Like I said, the rounds ability to stop some one is usefull if you really have to fight for your life. If one's not interested in that, sure carry a .22 or .25. Heck, carry a twinkie if twisted stats like those above are what you go for.

[JohnKSa]

Caliber CAN make a difference, even if the gun isn't used. In a carry gun, a stainless bore, and a 45 caliber hole generally make a greater impression then my 22 short Beretta would.

I suppose it's possible. Then again, don't most shootings happen in low light? I would think that if the goal is to be visually imposing the argument would be stronger for a large GUN than for a large CALIBER gun. Someone might reasonably mistake a subcompact .45 or 10mm for a mouse gun in low light while the gun below would be quite forbidding, even if one were to observe the muzzle clearly.




It's a .177 pellet gun with a recessed muzzle.

It would be interesting to see what a survey would say, but it seems the two most common responses to having a gun produced and pointed. One of them is that any gun being pointed at at a person seems to have a very large muzzle to the pointee. The second is instant flight by the pointee without any time taken to analyze the size/finish/caliber of the gun.

John, you aren't that good.

Back to reality--but I enjoyed the dream for 22 minutes...

[Socrates]

Advantages of the big bore snub is that when the trigger is pulled, grenade effect: the flash leave the guy blinded, and deaf, and, it appears a much bigger caliber then it is.

Nyeti
"on 357 close range
Wanna know why 125 gr. JHP .357 mag works so well on people? Noise and Flash. Several years ago I was talking about this load with some of the foremost experts in ballistic testing (and they don't write articles in gun rags). These are folks who use real labs, and have excellent access to L/E shootings. Their initial findings were that 125 JHP .357 mag is an "above average" performing round in gelatim testing, but nothing like its reputation. They began looking at L/E street shootings with the round and found an interesting set of similar circumstances existed during shootings with dramatic success. The shootings took place at night, at less than 6 FEET, with barrels 4" or less...................anybody want to raise their hand who wants to be in front of that. 125 gr. .357 mag's will throw a 15 yard ball of flame down range. Can you imagine what its like at 6 feet or less. The conclusion was that the blast and noise was a significant factor in making this round very succesful in shooting people at very close range.

I carried a Ruger SP101 for many years as a counter carjacking gun and a back up. My load of choice was the 180 gr. Winchester Black Talons which I understand is normally a Javelina hunting load. Many of the 145-158 gr. JHP's are excellent as well. All of them tend to be blasty out of the snubs.

During many disussions with true experts, the agreement was that typical human beings do not react well to having a grenade going off in their face. At these close ranges, that big blast going off will generally cause most folks to hit the ground out of normal reaction (similar to what we see when deploying flash bang grenades during SWAT operations), then realizing they have been shot as well helps in performance. Keep in mind that phyisically a human can remain in a fight for a minimum of 4-5 seconds (a lifetime in a gunfight) with any of the major arteries totally destroyed (aorta, brachial, femoral, etc..). This is why psychological reaction is important. Animals haven't watched enough TV to know that they are supposed to fall over and die when they get shot. The only way to be assured of a BG going down like a sack of potatoes is with a Central Nervous System shot. CNS shots need good penetration to make that happen, which is why I dislike the "gimmick" ammo so much.

I agree that the "sound and fury" of the full-load .357 may very well enhance its stopping effect on bad guys; the defender, who is already acquainted with the effect, is left unfazed. (The gun itself partially shades the shooter from the worst of it.) As for penetration, I have seen a shooting incident in which the Federal 125-grain JHP from a 4" GP100 went through the sternum, heart, one lung, exited the armpit, producing a plume of blood, avulsed tissue, and fragments of bullet jacket material which landed on the pavement, while the main part of the bullet entered the arm and lodged there. Was it a one-shot stop? Well, there was no rag-doll-drop-on-the-spot-like-a-sack-of-potatoes, but ALL the fight was gone from the perp, who dramatically changed direction from the line of attack, and staggered away for a bit. Good enough for me to still carry that same load in my 4" sixguns and much of the time in my snubbies. With the slightly lower velocity from the snubby, expansion will be less, which usually means deeper penetration."

[David Armstrong]

Yes since I have friends who have taken many of the courses.

So, again, you are discussing something that you have no personal or direct knowledge concerning the topic.

.........doing what you just said.

Except that I went on to point out that is totally irrelevant to selection of caliber and DGU success.

My problem? You base your carry caliber choice on statistics?

Nope. Once again, deal with what is said instead of what you wish someone had said. Statistics are only one part of the equation for me, and I think for most. Like Jim Watson said, I carry what interests me at the time and/or meets my needs at the time. But for typical CCW purposes I don't concern myself with caliber at all.

Then I'm the problem for preparing for the even longer shot............pure hypocrisy.

No, the hypocrisy is that you keep saying that others compromise is wrong and your compromise is right. There is the problem. You ignore all facts that fail to support your particular view and take isolated examples and claim they justify your view. That is hypocrisy. Nobody has said that you are wrong in your choice and you should not carry what you carry. You seem to be the one accusing others.

This quote is from an FBI report written in 1989 regarding the optimum sidearm caliber for LEO's.

Fortunately the role of the CCW and the role of the LEO are quite different, thus what might be optimum for LE may not be optimum for CCW.

Which points me toward yet another hypocritical practice.

I think you must have learned a new word. I would suggest that you learn how to correctly use the word if you are going to continue to use it in conversation. Many of the things you keep claiming as hypocritical have nothing to do with hypocrisy. This little rant of yours is a good example of that.

Why is it whenever the small caliber debate comes up someone always comes up with the stupid reply of "well if your going by the odds, you might as well not load it". I mean really, you should be able to come up with something better then that.

They should, but they can't, which indicates just how shallow their argument is when you get right down to it. When one has to resort to using completely implausible concepts or trying to restrict choice to obviously invalid responses it is usually pretty good evidence that they cannot make their point with facts and logic.

These figures were the FBIs, so I dunno. I suspect there were a heck of a lot more than 10 gunfights david.

Irrelevant. The issue was/is the proper understanding and use of the term "average" in the context of the discussion.

Something like what Jeff Cooper said about .25 autos and weither to keep them loaded or not.

Would that be the same Jeff Cooper who said, "What about the 22 for self-defense? We do not recommend it, but we certainly do not disregard it. In the first place, most defensive situations are solved by the presence of a gun, rather than by shooting. Nobody wants to get shot with anything, and a goblin confronted with a 22 is just as much affected as if he were looking into a larger muzzle." Or perhaps it was the same Jeff Cooper who said, "A good grade of pocket 22, fitted with a good trigger, has much to recommend it for house defense...." Or maybe it was the Jeff Cooper that said, "At risk of sounding loony, I maintain that the 22 long rifle is a considerably more practical cartridge than the 38 Special, or for that matter almost any other handgun cartridge."

Heck, carry a twinkie if twisted stats like those above are what you go for.

Sigh. The stats aren't twisted, but your ability to understand them certainly seems to be.

[pax]

Seems to me that 7 pages of the same endless caliber war, closed the day before this thread began, was plenty enough to last for awhile. Five pages of this and it's beginning to deteriorate.

Let's give this subject a rest for awhile, guys.

Thanks.

pax