.45 LC...Starting the bullet into the case.

[Doc Hoy]

Guys,

The way my bullets cast I get an O.D. of right around .454. with the lead I am using. It is a Lee 90234 mold. My lead is measuring right around BHN 8 to BHN 16

The case expanding die (also from Lee) opens the cases up such that the bullet requires a bit of yutzing to get it to start into the case. I was doing this by hand because I could not rely upon the press to start the bullet if I just sat it on top of the case.

Problem with doing it by hand is that I could not consistently get the bullet alignment right. In addition, handling the bullets left an awful lot of lube on my fingers and wiped the lube out of the grooves.

So I came up with a contraption that starts the bullet with great alignment every time. It reduces the amount of handling and smooths the lube into the grooves of the bullet.

It is made up of three components. One is a block of rock maple that is inletted to hold the case firmly in place in a rim up position. The second piece is made of a block of ABS plastic with a hole drilled though it. The hole has two different diameters. The smaller diameter is the perfect size to accept the bullet with a very little bit of force required to push it into the hole. The larger diameter is big enough to fit snuggly over the brass case. The third component is a little wooden Tee handle made from an oak handle and a dowel.

To use it, I lube the bullet and then force it through the larger diameter hole in the plastic block and into the smaller diameter part of the hole in the block. I put the bullet in nose first from larger diameter hole to smaller diameter hole. It stays put in the smaller diameter hole because of the snug fit with the nose just peaking out of the hole.

Then I put the casing with powder and card into the maple block to hold it upright and secure.

I put the plastic block with the bullet in it over the maple block with the bullet in perfect alignment with the case.

I then use the Tee handle to force the bullet about a 16th inch into the case.

Then I put the cartridge with the bullet into the press and seat and the crimp the bullet normally.

The plastic block holds the bullet secure in the right alignment. It also distrubutes the lube properly into the grooves.

I noticed when seating the bullet with the press that a little extra force is needed if the bullet alignment isn't right. This makes sense and I was concerned I was damaging the bullets because of this alignment problem. When I use my little contraption, since the alignment is always the same (and hopefully always right) I use the same force each time I seat the bullet.

[Hawg]

Sounds like you don't have your expander set up right. My 44-40 sizes cases to the original dimensions of .427 and wont expand enough to start a .430 bullet. I just use a wad punch and a hammer and add a little bell to them. I could us a 44 mag expander ball but that would be too much like right.

[Doc Hoy]

when I use this starter I don't get any lead shaved or anything.

The bullet is just a little too tight to start by hand.

I'll shoot some photos of this stuff as soon as I gets off my a __ __.

[Hawg]

Its not supposed to start by hand just not shave lead when its seated.

[TomADC]

I pan lube then run the bullets thru a Lee lube-sizer of the proper size, they do make a .454 along with a couple of others. Less than $20.00 Clean the bullet up also.

[Shotgun693]

What are you shooting this bullet out of?

[Doc Hoy]

Shotgun,

Uberti Cattleman

Tom,

I thought that the lube sizer was intended for use with Liquid Alox....

Does it work with black powder lube too? or perhaps does Liquid Alox work well as a black powder bullet lube?

Tnx in advance for the info...

[Doc Hoy]

I think I may have just found the answer for my own question.

A post on the Midway site (BTW, the sizer is on sale for 15.99) from a guy in Texas speaks of using bore lube in the sizer on the bullets.

I must confess I am only now getting a feel for how this sizer works. Since my first reaction (apparently an incorrect one) was that the thing only worked with a lube that was not right for BP applications, I didn't even bother to familiarize myself with it. I think maybe I might should take a closer look.

[Doc Hoy]

Just bought a Lube Sizer (Lee) from Titan Reloading. Even with Midway putting it on sale it was cheaper at Titan in the long run.

Also bought a four stage turret for the press.

I must say that I like dealing with Titan Reloading. Their prices are good, service is fast. Shipping is very reasonable (This package was 8.05 for priority mail and the addition of the turret to the order did not increase the shipping by even one cent). They take paypal.

On the down side, they handle almost exclusively Lee products and if you don't like Lee, you probably would find a different distributer to be more to your liking.

[Doc Hoy]

Photos of this contraption



The three pieces



Hre you can see the difference inthe diameters of the holes



The bullet goes in, nose first and is pushed from the large diameter to the small diameter

[Doc Hoy]

Here, the dullet is seated with the grooves all the way into the small diameter.



Then the bullet in the block is positioned over the shell and the tee handle pushes the bullet into the case just far enough toget it started.



From here the bullet goes into the press for final seating and crimping.

Perhaps when I get better at this, I won't need this device to get the bullet started straight.

[billcarey]

You may want to try a Lyman Multi-expand die. It expands the case just for the bullet to be easy to set into the case and then flares the mouth to whatever you adjust it to. It's standard with their dies if you buy a set.

bc

[TomADC]

Barry, I pan lube with Emments lube its a BP lube then run the bullets thru the Lee lube/sizer. Works great.

[Doc Hoy]

Thanks for the info.

Tom,

I have never messed with Alox, but as it calls itself a liquid I am assuming it is relatively runny.

Perhaps that is not correct.

Is Emments a thicker consistency? More like the combination tallow beeswax crisco, toilet donut based stuff?

[TomADC]

I use Buck Emmert's Lube Formula (for black powder)

1750 grains Beeswax
1368 grains Crisco Shortening (White)
328 grains Crisco or Wesson Vegatable Oil

This recipe makes 1/2 pound lubricant. If you tray lube as I do, you'll probably
want to double the recipe.
I also now substitute Anhydrous lanolin for the vegatable oil.

I use a WalMart cheapie crock pot to melt this in, I then use a turkey baster to put it in the pan with the bullets standing up.

BTW I have never used Alox

[Hawg]

Alox is a liquid. You pour a little bit over the bullets and roll them around for coverage. let them sit overnight and it hardens up to stickiness. Not a really messy sticky but sticky nonetheless.

[Doc Hoy]

Tom,

Your mix (Emmert's) appears to be close to what I was considering now that I came up with some beeswax. I was going to use olive oil for the oil.

Two questions:

1. Can you say why you went to lanolin?
2. Does this make a lube which retains its consistency in hot weather?

Hawg,

Thanks for the heads up on Alox. I will get a bit of it when i get the lube sizer kit. So I will give it a try. My hope is that it keeps the fouling soft in the .45 Long Colt pistol.

General:

Why is mutton tallow chosen over lard?

Tnx,

[Hawg]

I never used Alox with bp but I like it with smokeless.

[TomADC]

I like the lanolin the lube seems to stay better in hot weather and fouling has been pretty easy to clean up.
Doc olive oil is for salads!

BTW this lube is sticky but has never been runny.

[Malamute]

There's a differecne between Alox and Lee's liquid Alox. Alox bullet lube has been around for ages, and comes in round hollow sticks meant for easy use in the common (Lyman) luber/sizers. It isn't generally thought of as a good black powder lube, though I've used it for black in a Winchester 1886 and Colt single action 44 spl with decent results. The regular Alox meant for luber sizers is stickier than most lubes on commecially cast bullets, and is a bit more dirty to work with because of that, but I found it to be a good general purpose lube in the loads I mentioned, smokeless loads in the 45-70, and in the 44 magnum. I think it's head and shoulders better lube than any hard crayon like lube on the commercially cast bullets on the market.

I agree that your expander isn't adjusted right. When the flair is right, all you should have to do is set the bullet on top of the case and run the press ram up, seating and crimping. It will align going into the seating die. You can buy just the Lyman "M" expanding die that has the stepped expander for getting cast bullets started straight, though I've not had any troubles with the normal RCBS dies. With regular RCBS dies set to expand correctly, you should get zero lead shaving.

[Doc Hoy]

I am going to have to look into the adjustment of my expander die.

[Shotgun693]

Isn't your bullet a little larger than it needs to be for the bore of that gun? I use either a .451 or .452 and get excellent results.

[Doc Hoy]

I am using a Lee .452 mold. 90234. It was actually giving me larger bullets and bullets that were not very round. So I started clamping the mold tightly closed with a hand spring clamp.

Now I get bullets that measure much more consistently and are closer to the marked diameter of the mold.

Perhaps if I were more careful with the metal I am using, I would get better shrinkage and the bullets wold be closer to .452.

I think I recall reading posts from others who say that their bullets come out of the mold a bit larger than the mold is advertised to produce.

I know I have found that to be the case with round balls.

[Malamute]

Isn't your bullet a little larger than it needs to be for the bore of that gun? I use either a .451 or .452 and get excellent results.

Each gun can be a law unto itself. Even identical guns from the same manufacturer can vary some in barrel dimensions. Without slugging the bore of the individual gun, you don't know exactly what the grooove diameter is, and what to size it to for best results. Most feel .001" over groove diameter is best all around.

I am using a Lee .452 mold. 90234. It was actually giving me larger bullets and bullets that were not very round....

It sounds like you're on to the molds quirks some, but having round bullets should help. It shouldnt take a clamp to keep the handles together, but if that's what it takes, then who am I to complain?

Do the handles touch when the mould is closed? If so,try clearancing the handles till they don't, it should help if they are touching now. I've seen a few that touched, no good can come of that. The blocks need to be tightly together, not the handles.

[Doc Hoy]

The handles do not touch. The problem is that I am not very good at applying the same force every time when I hold the molds closed.

Some may say, "You should not have to hold the molds closed."

But I have found this to be the case in every mold I have, be they Lyman, Ideal or Lee.

Some of you may recall a post about two years ago in which I described spring loaded mold handle for my Lyman and Ideal molds. Using these spring loaded handles I cut standard deviation of round ball diameters by more than half. I can easily beat the consistency of Hornady balls.

So when I detected inconsistency in the RNFPs I was casting I naturally looked for a way to hold the molds tightly together with the same force every time. Because of the way Lee molds are put together it is hard to get them apart to change mold handles. And because of the way they close, my spring loaded handle design won't work on them.

So I just use the hand spring clamp (kind of like an oversized clothespin) to hold them closed. The effect is the same as the spring loaded handles on the steel molds. The mold line virtually disappears. And the bullets come out closer to round. Also they are more consistent from slug to slug.