m1 carbine can't penetrate frozen clothes?

moisanfan11 · December 17, 2012, 08:54 PM

I heard a rumor that the m1 carbine couldn't penetrate frozen clothes during the korean war. I was wondering if this was true

kraigwy · December 17, 2012, 09:21 PM

Take some cloths, get them wet, freeze them and see for your self.

It's BS.

Ridge_Runner_5 · December 17, 2012, 09:26 PM

Encountering a lot of abominable snowmen in Flagstaff?

Doc TH · December 17, 2012, 09:53 PM

Those are "sea stories". Read the Box O' Truth tests on frozen clothing and
M1 carbine. It went through them easily.

Come and take it. · December 17, 2012, 10:35 PM

the carbine can penetrate tissue better than some assault rifles. The bullet plows straight through cause it is a short round nose like a pistol bullet.

Think of it as a 7.62 tokarev on steroids.

barnbwt · December 18, 2012, 12:50 AM

Quote:

I heard a rumor that the m1 carbine couldn't penetrate frozen clothes during the korean war. I was wondering if this was true

I could understand a lack of effective penetration if the soldier beneath the clothes was frozen as well...but that's not the bullet's fault.

TCB

chris in va · December 18, 2012, 12:53 AM

The Box o'Truth showed a Tokarev round could penetrate a standard kevlar helmet. The 30 carbine has a similar profile bullet, but faster.

UtopiaTexasG19 · December 18, 2012, 07:28 AM

I would'nt want to be the volunteer inside the clothing.

Dfariswheel · December 18, 2012, 07:52 PM

This comes from the heavy cotton padded suits worn by the Red Chinese in the Korean War.
Rumor had it that the thick padding would soak up water and freeze, and the Carbine bullet would fail to penetrate.

There may be some truth to this because the Carbine was mis-used in the Korean War by being used at longer ranges.
The Carbine was intended to be a 100 yard replacement for the pistol.
When used at the longer ranges typical in the Korean War, penetration was less.

However, at closer ranges the Carbine has long been known as a good penetrator, including of bullet proof vests.

drail · December 18, 2012, 08:09 PM

I don't think the problem in Korea was that the M1 wouldn't penetrate, it just didn't seem to have much immediate effect on the Chinese soldiers. I have talked to Korean War vets who all told me that the guys with the M1 Garands were dropping enemy soldiers with one round way out there while the guys with M1 Carbines were having to drill them repeatedly at much closer range to put them down. Having shot both guns I can believe that. Guys in Southeast Asia who served during the switch from the M14 to the M16 all had similar experiences, at least the ones I have known.

Hairbag · December 18, 2012, 11:20 PM

I'm not sure but I think the M1 was not designed for combat troops It was designed for non-combat soldiers rather than having just a pistol.

Brit · December 18, 2012, 11:58 PM

The problem with the M1 Carbine, is the bullet. A soft lead, or hollow point round would make the carbine very effective.

When the various threats in the Security Company's areas of operation, are looked at, such as sites that are out in the boonies, or big trucking parking.

A short rifle would be ideal.

The powers that be vetoed that, something like the bullet goes to far?

Having done "Guard duty" at an out door ATM drive through, a short M1 Carbine would be ideal, 15 round magazine, a red dot sight, perfect.

The low recoil would lend itself to accurate follow up shots.

**JohnKSa** · December 19, 2012, 12:04 AM

Quote:

The 30 carbine has a similar profile bullet, but faster.

And significantly heavier.

I've never really understood why people think it's likely that a .30 caliber bullet that's quite a bit heavier than the .30Tok round and going faster than the .30 Tok round is going to be a poor penetrator when the .30 Tok is known as an excellent penetrator.

Quote:

I'm not sure but I think the M1 was not designed for combat troops It was designed for non-combat soldiers rather than having just a pistol.

Maybe, but it was well-liked by at least one combat soldier who knew a thing or two about how to get the job done. If you read Audie Murphy's autobiography, you will find that in at least some situations he preferred the Carbine over the Garand.

radom · December 19, 2012, 03:21 AM

To the original question a lot the ammo used in Koreia was from WW-2 and loaded for tropical use. It had a additive in the powder to keep the rounds from being affectived by humidity and heat that in time degraded the powder.

After the war lab tests showed this ammo would average around 650 FPS out of a carbine at below 0 temps.

Rainbow Demon · December 19, 2012, 03:42 AM

U S Army traing films demonstrated the penetration power of the .30 carbine under normal conditions, and it seems to have worked quite well against the German helmet. The same helmet would stop a .45 ACP (from a pistol) at medium ranges.

Its not unlikely that some Chinese troops wore captured U S Doron flak jackets or captured Japanese armor from WW2 occupying troops. I've seen photos of Japanese officers in China wearing metal breastplates. The Soviets had also developed Manganese steel breast plates during WW2, and those were likely available to the Red Chinese.

The .30 Carbine was in part prefered by some to the Thompson because the .30 bullet would penetrate the heavy vests worn by Imperial Marine machinegun crews while the .45 would not. The Japanese helmet was also noted for stopping pistol bullets but not the .30 Carbine bullet.

Round nose FMJ bullets of all calibers of 8mm or less had a poor rep for stopping power, even the .303 MkVI and 7x57 174 gr round nose had little stopping power unless they struck bone. Through and through chest wounds seldom stopped a charging enemy if his blood was up.

PS
During the 1905 war between Russia and Japan the Russians issued thousands of sets of body armor to officers.
The breastplate was of nickel steel and under this was a thick quilted tunic of many layers of silk. The Japanese bullets flattened or broke up on the steel and whatever got through was caught up in the silk.

There were numerous types of body armor available by the begining of WW2 but cost per unit prevented any significant use , other than air crew flak jackets, till late in the war.

Departed402 · December 19, 2012, 07:09 AM

Most of this come from the comparison of the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine. The .30 Carbine round is formidable and nothing to sneeze at to be sure, but when compared to a full-size rifle round like the .30-06... yeah the .30-06 will blow the .30 carbine bullet away.

kraigwy · December 19, 2012, 08:20 AM

My father fought in the SP in WWI, 41st Inf Div. (little known fact, there were more Army Divisions in the SP then Marine Divisions) and Korea. He liked the Carbine better then the M1 for jungle fighting.

He even killed a water buffalo with his carbine. He was a fan of the little rifle. I can't shoot mine without thinking about my father.

When Ruger came out with the Blackhawk in 30 cal, he thought that would be the cat's meow, but was never able to get one before he passed on.

Some day I'll find one in his honor.

December 17, 2012, 08:54 PM	#1
moisanfan11 Member Join Date: December 1, 2012 Location: flagstaff, az Posts: 58	m1 carbine can't penetrate frozen clothes? I heard a rumor that the m1 carbine couldn't penetrate frozen clothes during the korean war. I was wondering if this was true

December 17, 2012, 09:21 PM	#2
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Take some cloths, get them wet, freeze them and see for your self. It's BS. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

December 18, 2012, 11:20 PM	#11
Hairbag Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Posts: 449	I'm not sure but I think the M1 was not designed for combat troops It was designed for non-combat soldiers rather than having just a pistol. __________________ I'm hairbag and I approve this message.

December 19, 2012, 03:42 AM	#15
Rainbow Demon Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2012 Posts: 397	U S Army traing films demonstrated the penetration power of the .30 carbine under normal conditions, and it seems to have worked quite well against the German helmet. The same helmet would stop a .45 ACP (from a pistol) at medium ranges. Its not unlikely that some Chinese troops wore captured U S Doron flak jackets or captured Japanese armor from WW2 occupying troops. I've seen photos of Japanese officers in China wearing metal breastplates. The Soviets had also developed Manganese steel breast plates during WW2, and those were likely available to the Red Chinese. The .30 Carbine was in part prefered by some to the Thompson because the .30 bullet would penetrate the heavy vests worn by Imperial Marine machinegun crews while the .45 would not. The Japanese helmet was also noted for stopping pistol bullets but not the .30 Carbine bullet. Round nose FMJ bullets of all calibers of 8mm or less had a poor rep for stopping power, even the .303 MkVI and 7x57 174 gr round nose had little stopping power unless they struck bone. Through and through chest wounds seldom stopped a charging enemy if his blood was up. PS During the 1905 war between Russia and Japan the Russians issued thousands of sets of body armor to officers. The breastplate was of nickel steel and under this was a thick quilted tunic of many layers of silk. The Japanese bullets flattened or broke up on the steel and whatever got through was caught up in the silk. There were numerous types of body armor available by the begining of WW2 but cost per unit prevented any significant use , other than air crew flak jackets, till late in the war. Last edited by Rainbow Demon; December 19, 2012 at 03:49 AM.

December 19, 2012, 08:20 AM	#17
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	My father fought in the SP in WWI, 41st Inf Div. (little known fact, there were more Army Divisions in the SP then Marine Divisions) and Korea. He liked the Carbine better then the M1 for jungle fighting. He even killed a water buffalo with his carbine. He was a fan of the little rifle. I can't shoot mine without thinking about my father. When Ruger came out with the Blackhawk in 30 cal, he thought that would be the cat's meow, but was never able to get one before he passed on. Some day I'll find one in his honor. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

December 17, 2012, 09:26 PM	#3
Ridge_Runner_5 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,925	Encountering a lot of abominable snowmen in Flagstaff?

December 17, 2012, 09:53 PM	#4
Doc TH Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Posts: 633	Those are "sea stories". Read the Box O' Truth tests on frozen clothing and M1 carbine. It went through them easily.

December 17, 2012, 10:35 PM	#5
Come and take it. Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 999	the carbine can penetrate tissue better than some assault rifles. The bullet plows straight through cause it is a short round nose like a pistol bullet. Think of it as a 7.62 tokarev on steroids.

December 18, 2012, 12:53 AM	#7
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	The Box o'Truth showed a Tokarev round could penetrate a standard kevlar helmet. The 30 carbine has a similar profile bullet, but faster.

December 18, 2012, 07:28 AM	#8
UtopiaTexasG19 Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2011 Location: S.E. Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 743	I would'nt want to be the volunteer inside the clothing.

December 18, 2012, 07:52 PM	#9
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	This comes from the heavy cotton padded suits worn by the Red Chinese in the Korean War. Rumor had it that the thick padding would soak up water and freeze, and the Carbine bullet would fail to penetrate. There may be some truth to this because the Carbine was mis-used in the Korean War by being used at longer ranges. The Carbine was intended to be a 100 yard replacement for the pistol. When used at the longer ranges typical in the Korean War, penetration was less. However, at closer ranges the Carbine has long been known as a good penetrator, including of bullet proof vests.

December 18, 2012, 08:09 PM	#10
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	I don't think the problem in Korea was that the M1 wouldn't penetrate, it just didn't seem to have much immediate effect on the Chinese soldiers. I have talked to Korean War vets who all told me that the guys with the M1 Garands were dropping enemy soldiers with one round way out there while the guys with M1 Carbines were having to drill them repeatedly at much closer range to put them down. Having shot both guns I can believe that. Guys in Southeast Asia who served during the switch from the M14 to the M16 all had similar experiences, at least the ones I have known.

December 18, 2012, 11:58 PM	#12
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	The problem with the M1 Carbine, is the bullet. A soft lead, or hollow point round would make the carbine very effective. When the various threats in the Security Company's areas of operation, are looked at, such as sites that are out in the boonies, or big trucking parking. A short rifle would be ideal. The powers that be vetoed that, something like the bullet goes to far? Having done "Guard duty" at an out door ATM drive through, a short M1 Carbine would be ideal, 15 round magazine, a red dot sight, perfect. The low recoil would lend itself to accurate follow up shots.

December 19, 2012, 03:21 AM	#14
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,352	To the original question a lot the ammo used in Koreia was from WW-2 and loaded for tropical use. It had a additive in the powder to keep the rounds from being affectived by humidity and heat that in time degraded the powder. After the war lab tests showed this ammo would average around 650 FPS out of a carbine at below 0 temps.

December 19, 2012, 07:09 AM	#16
Departed402 Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 2009 Location: Midwest Posts: 884	Most of this come from the comparison of the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine. The .30 Carbine round is formidable and nothing to sneeze at to be sure, but when compared to a full-size rifle round like the .30-06... yeah the .30-06 will blow the .30 carbine bullet away.

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