Anyone have 180gr 357 load data using Bullseye?

[bumnote]

I've got a box of Speer 180gr TMJ's that I've never used...namely because I don't have any load data. While I did find data some using H110, they call for magnum primers. I've got H110, but I only have plain old small pistol primers.

Is using Bullseye possible for these bullets using small pistol primers? They're just been collecting dust and I really don't use (or have) small pistol mag primers.

Thanks.

[mxsailor803]

Had to think about this one for a minute. I can't recall ever really using magnum primers with H110. I would try a couple rounds at a realistic medium pressure load and see what happens. May get a bunch of unburned powder or may not.

[Ifishsum]

I would try standard primers with H110 before I'd use Bullseye in .357M with a heavy bullet. You're talking about two potential loadings at opposite ends of the power range there, and not really comparable. H110 supposedly takes a hotter flame to ignite consistently, hence the magnum primer recommendation. My bet is that they will probably work 95% of the time; failure rate is likely to increase in cold weather so be aware of possible squibs.

[WIL TERRY]

WITH THOSE PROJECTILES, that is the poorest choise of propellents possible.

And so it goes...

[TimSr]

The worst thing that can happen with standard primers is a squib, and if you recognize it and handle it before firing another round, you'll be fine. Its rare for 110 to not ignite with a standard primer unless its has other issues coupled with it, such as underloading it. As long as you don't go below minimum published charge (per Hodgon) you'll be fine, I'd still pick up some mag primers as soon as you can to decrease the possibility of poor ignition.

[Salmoneye]

Download the 2005 Alliant manual below...Page 42 has Bullseye data for 180gr jacketed bullet:

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre...liant_2005.pdf

Other old Hercules and Allaint manuals at this page:

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre...M/Alliant.html

[Nick_C_S]

WITH THOSE PROJECTILES (180 TMJ), that (Bullseye) is the poorest choice of propellants possible.

I'm about as big of a fan of heavy bullets over fast powders as anybody I know. But that's an awfully heavy bullet over an awfully fast propellant. And burn rate aside, Bullseye is also highly energetic and thus, unforgiving. Bullseye is really really snappy. This combination will have an extremely steep pressure curve. With 31 years of handgun loading experience; I would recommend against even attempting this combination.

As far as the standard primers with H110 goes: Magnum primers are recommended. H110 (or W296 - same propellant) is notorious for not wanting to ignite. For all I know, standard primers would work fine; but I've never attempted it. I've always followed the manuals and used magnum primers. And I can only recommend others doing the same.

So what to do? My first recommendation would be to get some mag primers (H110 being an excellent choice for the bullet). Second recommendation would be to get another propellant that ignites easier than H110 (which is just about anything else ) but isn't ridiculously fast (like Bullseye) for that heavy bullet. 2400 is the first to pop in my mind. But of course, you'd be buying a pound of powder for just a box of bullets. Hence, the primer recommendation .

[briandg]

Just the fact that you asked this question shows that you have concerns, and in your heart, know better. There can't possibly be a worse idea than sticking a tiny charge of bullseye into the great big magnum case behind the heaviest possible bullet. Just don't do it, no matter what you find. Ordinarily, I'd say that you could trust the data, but gee, way back when, they also used to load .44 magnum with bullseye, too. The recommended load for that is 9 grains for a subsonic round.

the .357 load for the 158 is 4.8, once again for a subsonic round. What will the 180 be, 4? 3.5?

You will not get magnum performance without great risk. As I always say, powder is cheap. Get an appropriate powder for the round. maybe 2400.

[T. O'Heir]

"...they call for magnum primers..." For reasons known only to them, Hodgdon is showing magnum primers for magnum named cartridges. H110 is a .30 Carbine powder. No magnum primer called for.
You plain old small pistol primers will be fine. Alliant uses 'em with Bullseye too. Magnum primers are about the powder, not the bullet or cartridge name. Squibs are a cartridge with no powder. Nothing to do with magnum or standard primers.
Biggest question is what cartridge you loading?

[bumnote]

Thanks for all the responses! Going over all of them now.
I've had these bullets for several years, so I'm in no rush. I got a couple of thousand SWC's and much lighter FMJ's to go thru first.
Picking up some new power and some magnum primers seems to be in order.
I've only been loading for around five years, long enough to know to ask first if in doubt.
Again thanks guys!

[Longshot4]

I found 2 ways to go with the 357 Mag. and 180gr. bullet. In the Hodgdon manual #25 page 394.

Primer small pistol Magnum. You have 2 choices for powder they are H4227 and H110. The higher vel. is with H110.

If you decide to hunt with this bullet I suggest working up some loads for accuracy.

If you don't hit the spot it doesn't mater what powder you use.

Fifty to seventy five Yards should be far enough. That's my opinion.

Load by the manuals.

[sghart3578]

I will post my load data with the understanding that the OP was asking about TMJ bullets and mine are cast lead.

I use a mold that drops a 184 gr WFN bullet in my alloy. I have tested Bullseye with this bullet in 357 mag cases. All loads fired in a Marlin 1894CS carbine, 18.5" barrel.

YMMV

2.7 gr Bullseye avg 825 fps
4 gr Bullseye avg 1040 fps
7 gr Bullseye avg 1410 fps

My notes indicate that these loads all gave acceptable to excellent accuracy, defined by me as 3" at 70 yards for excellent, 5" for acceptable.

I went through a phase where I tested Bullseye in everything from 9 mm to 30-06.

Best of luck.

[1100 tac]

Save yourself potential problems and use magnum primers with H110, and use H110 with your heavy bullets.

The purpose of the heavy bullets is hunting, why load them as plinkers?

[briandg]

That's always a good question, but generally it is like that mountain. They're taking up space on the bench.

I can't disagree with the idea, but it's not always a great idea.

On my various benches, I have a box of 25 mercury switches, two pounds of magnesium ribbon, road flares, and a quart of agent chartreuse from my time as a CIA lapdog. Agent chartreuse can wipe out half a county if used properly, but nobody has ever used it and survived.

There is always a really solid argument for just letting sleeping dogs lie. Or, if it's a rabid Shi Tzu with dentures and a history of mental problems, sometimes it's an even better idea to just send those crazy souvenirs to the dangerous waste facility.

[44 AMP]

Is using Bullseye possible for these bullets using small pistol primers?

ABSOLUTELY!

it can be done, and done safely.

HOWEVER, its a near total waste of the bullet.

The 180gr TMJ is wasted as a plinker bullet.

My best advice is to take the bullets to a gun show and TRADE them. Or sell them outright.

JUST FYI, I don't have a load with bullseye for that specific bullet, but here is a load from the 1970s Lyman book for comparison...

195gr (cast) Bullseye standard primers 5" bbl S&W M27 test gun
3.0gr 720fps

3.5gr 782fps (MAX)

Bullseye needs regular primers, and in the .357 is good for target and midrange loads. You hit max pressure with bullseye well before you get to magnum velocitites.

I would expect with a max safe charge of Bullseye, you could get those 180 TMJ up to about 800fps or so. NOT what that bullet was meant for.

Good Luck.

[bumnote]

Thanks again guys. I wasn't planning on plinking with these...I only have 50 of them anyway. I was looking to possibly load up some rounds with them to load in my Blackhawk when I go hiking or camping.

[Salmoneye]

HOWEVER, its a near total waste of the bullet.

The 180gr TMJ is wasted as a plinker bullet.

Not that I don't agree, but ATK/Speer does indeed list them under 'Plinkers':

http://www.speer-bullets.com/product...n/default.aspx

[Salmoneye]

I was looking to possibly load up some rounds with them to load in my Blackhawk when I go hiking or camping.

Then Bullseye will not get you the magnum velocities it seems you are looking for...

H110, a firm crimp, and a mag primer are what you want...

[Longshot4]

Salmoneye
I am very impressed with the selection of information you are showing us. In particular the #6 thread second sight. I don't believe I have seen that historic type of information before. When I can look up data that is from 1951 as old as me that really caught my eye.

Thanks

Keep up the good job.

[44 AMP]

Salmoneye, the link you gave lists them under "Target/Plinker".

The TMJ bullets were developed for target shooting, primarily metallic silhouette shooting.

You can consider it plinking if you want, I consider it a specialty bullet for a specialty purpose, and not what I consider a "plinker".

[Salmoneye]

Not sure where you see the word 'Target' on the page I linked...

The three choices at the bottom of the page are "Self Defense", "Hunting", and "Plinker" in that order...

As I said...I do not disagree with you, but Speer lists that bullet under 'plinker' on the page I linked...

On the TMJ page itself, the word 'target' never appears:

http://www.speer-bullets.com/product...inker/tmj.aspx

What it does say is:

" TMJ® bullets are great for casual practice and plinking because, in addition to being super-accurate, they are economical."

[Salmoneye]

Originally Posted by Longshot4

When I can look up data that is from 1951 as old as me that really caught my eye.

Just remember that as with any reloading recipe, cross reference it if you can...

If you can't find additional sources, ask on forums like this one...

Some older data should be taken with a grain of salt, and asking others most often will get at least some good info or reasons why you should or shold not follow those recipes...

Start low and work up...

[44 AMP]

Not sure where you see the word 'Target' on the page I linked...

Open the "select usage" window about the middle of the page. One of the choices is "Target/Plinker".

[Slamfire]

According to CCI, their 550 primer is a magnum primer. http://www.cci-ammunition.com/produc...imer_chart.htm But, I used CCI 500's with W296 and my loads shot well. I don't know what the big fuss is about W296 needing magnum primers. Maybe in cold weather? I did have an ignition issue with a S&W revolver, cold weather, ball powder, and a worn out mainspring. I think I was using WSP at the time which were very hot primers. However, the real problem was not the primer, but weak ignition. Replaced the mainspring and the same loads went bang in slightly warmer, but still cold weather.

Smith & Wesson M27-2 6.5” Barrel			
					
					
		
158 LSWC Linotype 15.5 W296  Zero Cases CCI500 	
	 				
21 June 2008 T =  85 °F				
					
Ave Vel =	1282				
Std Dev =	35				
ES =	128.1				
High =	1325				
Low =	1197				
N =	12				
					
No leading, no extraction issues				
					
158 LSWC Linotype 15.5 W296  3D Cases CCI500 	
	 				
14 Oct 2008 T =  80 °F				
					
Ave Vel =	1260				
Std Dev =	34				
ES =	160.5				
High =	1315				
Low =	1154				
N =	18				
					
					
	

[skizzums]

don't give up on the bullseye, I have worked up 170gr loads using bullseye with mag primers, I only buy mag primers for all pistol reloading so I cannot help with that part of your question. but I have started with the SIERRA 170gr FMJ and tried bullseye, titegroup and WST. The titegroup was the clear winner, but the bullseye was consistent and nowhere near as dirty as people complain it is. I started my loads at 5.0 since I had almost no real data to go off of, ran them up to 5.8, none showing any pressure sign, and all were moderately accurate with a chrono'd speed of 980 on the low side(too low) and up to low 1100's on the high loads, I could have gone farther but I didn't feel the need when less titegroup finished out the day with better accuracy, slightly higher speeds with almost identical powder charges. I ran the TG with published data from 5.2-5.8gr ending up with lows in the 1000 area give or take 20fps and the higher loads giving impressive 1200's from the extra long lever-action with a 20" barrel. But no brass gave me any issues with pressure signs or "dirtiness" and although the TG runs at slightly less pressures with better outcomes, no reason the Bullseye couldn't be tweaked to be a safe load running decent numbers from even a revolver. I think you just need to pick a low and safe start point, find a published max to stay clear of, and i'll bet you can make a decent load....as for the primers, your just gonna have to try and maybe seat a little deeper with a little more crimp than you would usually use. there are internet loads that give very little info, and although the velocities are rarely matching or even close, I do find their starting loads to be reasonably within safe levels, but I still drop 10-15% to start since the authors are unknown.

I think TG is your closest match for load data, but obviously you need to drop a good bit starting out, other good choices would be WST, Universal and of course HP38. I believe except for density, load data and velocities are very close matches between TiteGroup and Bullseye. Have fun, here is a site that may help get you started for odd combinations.....as for the primers? can you really not find mag primers? I would save the pistol primers for lighter bullets and high density powders where you not playing too close to the pressure territories of a half full case of fluffy stuff.

use this site with caution and if you have data to match it up with or better yet a quikload or a close to weight/profile that's published, triple check and reduce when using this site as a guide.
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/de...l&type=Handgun