|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
View Poll Results: Should WA State Control their wolf population | |||
Yes, this is an invasive and destructive subspecies. | 37 | 66.07% | |
No, let nature take it's course. | 19 | 33.93% | |
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
July 9, 2012, 06:00 PM | #26 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
|
Native Rocky Mountain wolf is now extinct at the hands of the Feds wolf "reintroduction" program. Several of my friends, one a rancher born, and raised here in northern Idaho used to see this wolf very frequently on his property. That is until the Feds "reintroduced" the Mackenzie Valley wolf which has brought this subspecies native wolf into extinction.
Quote:
Here is an excellent commentary and summary of these two subspecies and the impact on the people that now live with this experiment gone wrong. http://graywolfnews.com/pdf/Editoria...periment_2.pdf |
|
July 9, 2012, 06:10 PM | #27 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 29, 2008
Location: The retarded place below Idaho
Posts: 1,408
|
Religion, bashing, bickering and picking each other apart........ ya this one is done
__________________
The best shot I ever made was an accident |
July 9, 2012, 10:16 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 19, 2007
Location: Montmorency Co, MI
Posts: 1,551
|
Id expect the population of wolves in WA and ID are way over the 'target pop' set by CITES when the wolves were listed, probably in the 70s. 6-8 times that population 'goal' that they all agreed on.
In MI there are officially 637, if I recall correctly. Many say it is about 3x that many. In WI, I dont know. Perhaps someone could chime im. The 'goal' for MI and WI was 100 wolves. When MI should attempt to set a season the weirdos will think the sky is falling. The best thing we can do in MI is send the wolves back to the HILLS- Irish Hills, Rochester Hills, and Farmington Hills and see how they fit in!! |
July 10, 2012, 12:56 AM | #29 |
Junior member
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
|
The data on wolves in the Rockies is that they take 40-50 elk for each wolf each year. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see what kind of impact that has on the elk population.
Many of these kills are left to rot without eating in what the scientists call thrill kills just for the fun of it. |
July 10, 2012, 09:24 AM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 12, 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,315
|
The introduction , not re-introduction, of this particular species is the problem.
This is like introducing African lions to replace a mountain lion population. If the tree huggers can't get a handle on this, they need to go hug poison ivy. After the plate is clean of elk and deer, what do you suppose the super wolves will hunt next? |
July 10, 2012, 11:32 AM | #31 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
|
Quote:
|
|
July 10, 2012, 04:32 PM | #32 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 6,126
|
Alaska444: Washington state does have a wolf management plan.
The people that keep crying wolf need to get a grip. http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00001/ Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
BTW Quote:
|
||||
July 10, 2012, 04:48 PM | #33 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 24, 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 1,552
|
I think all states should manage all their various forms of wildlife, both four legged and two legged. Management doesn't necessarily mean killing them.
|
July 10, 2012, 04:49 PM | #34 |
Junior member
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
|
Dear Buzzcook,
Let's discuss this looking at the data instead of throwing unneeded personal invectives my way. I am aware of the WA program to PROMOTE wolf populations and I have seen those sites, but that was not the question that I posed. I seriously doubt that WA state will have the political will to control the wolf population through hunting once it reaches a level that seriously impacts other game animal populations and threatens human populations directly through encroachment in suburbs and through public health issues related to the spread of hydatid disease. Will WA state keep wolf numbers under control through hunting of wolves to prevent damage to the entire ecosystem or will the false propaganda associated with wolves dominate the political debate preventing control of this species leading them to paralysis of what will one day be a significant issue. My guess is that WA will not be able to come to a consensus politically like ID and MT who see the great public health risk posed by wolves and aggressively control their populations and wolves will overwhelm the entire ecosystem. It will be interesting to see how popular those cute little wolves will be in WA state in the next 5-10 years. Let's stick to the issues since your view is in the minority here on TFL and since we are discussing real issues, TFL has to date allowed the discussion to progress. |
July 10, 2012, 04:52 PM | #35 | ||
Junior member
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
July 10, 2012, 07:13 PM | #36 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 6,126
|
Quote:
Invective? http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/searc...on&FORM=DTPDIA Quote:
|
||
July 10, 2012, 07:42 PM | #37 |
Junior member
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
|
Already read it and others before I put my post up. The wolf management plan is not my question. The wolf management plan is a "custodial" management plan to increase the wolf population.
My question and my post concerns whether WA will ever must the political will to introduce a "manipulative" management program once the wolf population outstrips its resources as it did in WY/ID and MT? I seriously doubt WA state will muster that political will since the wolf is shrouded in propaganda and the darker side of this killing machine is not mentioned. The Discovery channel program is one example of this propaganda that does not give a clear presentation of why that man was hunting wolves in Idaho. Instead, they only presented a slanted view of wolves as an endangered creature when that is laughable given their huge numbers in Alaska and Canada. We have had a very sustainable ecology in the Pacific Northwest without any wolves whatsoever. As essential as the propaganda shows allege, game and forest lands have flourished for the several decades these critters were gone. Now with an invasive subspecies that belongs on the tundra and not in the Pacific Northwest and Rockies bringing in deadly public health diseases to boot, I believe WA state deserves the full truth of the experiment that their state government is about to engage. If you wish to believe that the Mackenzie Valley wolf is native and belongs here, so be it. The data and information appears to be something you simply wish to ignore. However, 2/3rds of those responding to the poll know the facts and understand the danger of this invasive species. Perhaps you should do a bit more homework on this subject than government websites. That is why I posted this since the majority of people believe what is stated on the Discovery channel program linking in my OP. It is completely devoid of the reality of living with wolves in large numbers. BTW, hugging poison ivy is quite humorous response and that is why I noted it. Lighten up guy and go learn some more about this entire issue. |
July 11, 2012, 12:31 PM | #38 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
|
Quote:
my family owns a large portion of land on Craig MT south of Lewiston and near one of the first canadian gray wolf populations established in Idaho. they have had cattle there since before the indigenous wolves were completely killed out. they rarely lost cattle and when they did it was normally a sickly one that had left the herd to die. there are coyotes, bobcats, cougars, unconfirmed sightings of lynx, dogs,I laugh at the stories of eagles killing livestock but we have those too, foxes, badgers, and bears. the number of livestock that has disappeared or found dead has always remained about the same...until recently. I do not buy for one second that the amount of cattle that my uncles have had disappearing(which has increased exponentially over the the last decade) has anything to do with the NATIVE PREDATORIAL SPECIES. I do believe that these canadian gray wolves that have adapted to a much harsher environment are 100% to blame for the reason that it is next to impossible to get drawn for elk, moose or deer tags in the mountains. it is why I am seeing elk and moose in lower elevations than anyone has seen since the first settlers have arrived. their instincts tell them to kill anything that comes along because in a canadian winter they don't know the next time they will find food again, here in idaho it is not so tough...or at least it wasn't before they started wiping out entire herds of elk and leaving them to rot. washington is notorious for incredibly strict hunting laws and an inability to deal with over population. along the snake/columbian river basin there are herds of whitetail deer that contain over 400. the land can not sustain a population that large and washington only allows the taking of bucks 2 points or larger(that's 2 points on each antler) so these herds containing over 90% does and most of the bucks being spikes are largely untouched by hunters. they are starving, they are diseased, and washington refuses to thin them out. not only that but they've gone one step further. a handful of people have been taking matters into their own hands and started a non-sanctioned thinning of these herds and washington fish and game started ordering patrol boats on the river to prevent this "poaching" and protect these herds... what is going to happen when all the blacktail, whitetail, mule deer and what few elk they have are gone and the wolves start killing livestock? I think I have a pretty good idea what they will do based on previous population control measures they've taken.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin Last edited by tahunua001; July 11, 2012 at 12:39 PM. |
|
July 11, 2012, 12:38 PM | #39 |
Junior member
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
|
+1 tahunua001, great summary of the situation in Idaho and in WA state. I believe that WA state is facing a grave problem in 5-10 years since it is very unlikely that they will have the political will to control this aggressive wolf. Great summary.
|
July 11, 2012, 12:50 PM | #40 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 2,832
|
Maybe we need to send some of our NM wolves up to the poor guys in Idaho, they're doing population control hunts here. The few grey wolves they introduced don't seem to be making the promised dent.
As for the "50 elk per year per wolf" number, that's 20-30 lbs of meat per day for each wolf. I don't think they'd be running down that many elk with their belly dragging on the ground. 50 elk per pack sounds more reasonable.
__________________
I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying. |
July 11, 2012, 01:11 PM | #41 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
|
we are talking about 200-300 pound wolves here and they cover a lot of ground. there is really no domestic dog you could equate them to but I could see an animal that weighs that much eating 30 pounds of meat a day and working it off by the time the pack has moved 30 miles through the mountains. in the winter they would burn even more.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin |
July 11, 2012, 03:16 PM | #42 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 6,126
|
Quote:
|
|
July 11, 2012, 04:07 PM | #43 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
|
Quote:
http://rliv.com/pic/USGS%20Wolf%20Kill%20Rate.pdf What is not taken into consideration, is that these wolves kill many more animals than they eat. I have foregone placing some of the websites showing how wolves eat the cows from the rear, pull out the entrails and then leave them alive to die a death of pure misery. Thrill kills are a part of the Mackenzie Valley wolf behavior. |
|
July 11, 2012, 05:13 PM | #44 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: July 9, 2007
Posts: 1,119
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
July 11, 2012, 06:11 PM | #45 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
|
Quote:
When I lived in Maine we didn't have any moose at all. Now, today, moose are hunted with a recovered population. I suspect in time, the cougars will return as we have sightings of them even in Connecticut of all places. Coyotes are taking over the entire country and are alive and well here in Idaho as well. The monster wolves from Canada are a true wolf disaster as declared by the Governor of Idaho last year. This has nothing to do the excesses of the past. It has all to do with betrayal and falsehoods perpetrated by the Feds against the populations in these areas. |
|
July 11, 2012, 09:46 PM | #46 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 1, 2010
Posts: 363
|
Quote:
|
|
July 11, 2012, 11:20 PM | #47 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
|
^ agreed. there are several different subspecies of gray wolves. saying that these wolves are indigenous because they are gray wolves is like saying that an Akita is a good choice to replace a labrador as a bird dog because...well they are both dogs.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin Last edited by tahunua001; July 12, 2012 at 07:27 AM. |
July 11, 2012, 11:23 PM | #48 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 6,126
|
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepol...slap-on-wrist/
Quote:
|
|
July 12, 2012, 08:33 AM | #49 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 14, 2011
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 148
|
This isn't the first time this has happened. The eastern peregrine falcon was supposed to be extinct although there were confirmed reports of that peregrine all the way up until 1980. A known wild produced male bred with a released falcon in 1980 and a pair of unbanded birds produced young that same year in Maine. Anyway to make a long story short about 7 subspecies of peregrine were released east of the 100th meridian. The idea was to throw them all together and let nature sort it out. The birds were very successful and have recovered to be delisted in 1998 by the feds. Sadly some states still carry them on their endangered lists.
So far as I know there hasn't been any problems with those birds. They eat a bunch of stuff we'd rather not have such as pigeons and starlings but the facts are the Feds and others released different subspecies of peregrine falcons in the east when they could have waited longer and allowed the Canadian and Western US captive populations of peregrines to begin to produce enough birds to begin releases a few years later. West of the 100th meridian there were populations of peregrines so it was agreed upon to release only birds from that subspecies. For the life of me I can't figure out how the birds could tell where the 100th is. So far as I'm concerned it's water over the dam but I thought I'd bring it up. To so many a peregrine is a peregrine and that's that. I wonder if the Feds have done this more than a couple of times. Florida panthers? Red wolves? Others? |
July 12, 2012, 09:46 AM | #50 | |
Staff
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,060
|
Quote:
Not to change the subject, but when you say "disappearing" do you mean completely? Like, no trace ever seen again? No carcasses or bones? I ask just because I saw a news story that cattle rustling had been making a big comeback, particularly in the southern states, and wondered if it had maybe worked its way up into your neck of the woods.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle |
|
|
|