Caliber Sizes for Cap&Ball Revolvers

Whisk · September 26, 2006, 09:42 AM

I have a 44 Remington New Army.

So I was going to purchas some 44 size balls for it. Gunsmith says: "Wait a minute there Whisk. Better mike those and your cylinder size for ya...."

Sure enough the cylinders calibrated to .446 and the balls .440 (as advertised).

Turns out I need .45+ size for this "44" cap&ball pistola.

Never had a problem since no matter what kind of patches I use......

sundance44s · September 26, 2006, 10:45 AM

Most of the Remington 1858`s on the market today shave a lead ring off the ball when loading ... If a .451 ball shaves a lead ring you can use it .. if you go to a larger ball say a .454 or .457 all you are going to do is shave more lead when loading ( wasted lead ) I`ve got an old Euro Arms Remmie that doesn`t shave lead because the holes are chamfered .. but most today will shave a lead ring ..and thats all the lead ball you can get into those cylinder holes .

Dave Markowitz · September 26, 2006, 10:59 AM

I'll have to respectfully disagree with sundance. I like shooting .457 balls in my .44s. You wind up with a large bearing surface which aides accuracy. For the same reason, I use .380s in my .36 Navy Colt, even though Uberti recommended .375 balls. The .380s gave much better accuracy.

Whisk · September 26, 2006, 02:28 PM

But Sundance, does that mean you can shoot .440 size balls without a larger patch or what

Steve499 · September 26, 2006, 02:52 PM

You'll have to save the .440 balls for a single shot .45, either rifle or pistol, which uses a patched ball. The percussion revolvers are designed to be loaded with balls larger than the cylinder dimension without any patch. Some use felt wads but that's another subject which has no bearing on the correct ball size needed for a .44 revolver. Depending on individual tolerance variations, a .451, .454 or .457 ball will be needed for a revolver. If the balls are pure lead, I'd go out on a limb and say .457 balls would work in almost any .44 revolver. If you are casting balls out of unknown lead alloys, you might have to go to a smaller ball size to make loading easier.

I use .451s in my Pietta .44 Remington, which give me good accuracy and easy loading, but I only use them because I glommed onto a .451 mold really cheap. If I were buying a new one, I'd choose a .454 for my pistol.

Steve

sundance44s · September 26, 2006, 04:37 PM

Whisk ... i thought i saw the word patch in your question .. you won`t use a patch on a revolver as stated . I do know some shooters that use patches on old colt reproductions that have chamfered cylinders .. but thats another story ... you stated you have a 44 Remington .. that one wouldn`t need a patch at all eaither way .... wonder wads can be used but they aren`t a patch they just fit over the powder charge before you load the ball not around the ball like a patch . I`ve never used the wonder wads .. but i do dab a spot of crisco / beeswax mix over the top of the balls ..just to releive the barrel and cylinder pin fouling ..which prevents chain fires too at least from the front .. the wonderwads are suppose to prevent this too .

Plastic Cowboy · September 27, 2006, 10:11 AM

I read somewhere that you can place some very fine emory cloth or sand paper over the chamber and twist a marble around in it to bevel the opening slightly.....this would cause the roundball to be compressed rather than shave a ring off the outside when pressed in. I haven't tried this yet but I plan to in the future. As long as you use a very fine abrasive it doesn't seem like you could do any real harm.

I think the point is to cause less deformation of the ball potentially increasing accuracy.

anybody tried this???

arcticap · September 27, 2006, 12:05 PM

Virtually all of the Italian revolvers except for a top competition Pietta model have cylinder chambers with dimensions that are smaller than the rifling in the barrel. There is also a barrel throat that affects accuracy, so it's not so much the shape of the ball as it is these critical dimensional tolerances that affect accruacy.
Unless you are shooting a Ruger Old Army, you should look at this website where the gunsmith/owner goes to great lengths to acurize and fine tune cap & ball revolvers at very reasonable rates. He's a real expert with lots of experience, and you can check out his results and get info. from various threads on the site:

http://www.bigironbarrels.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=85

http://www.bigironbarrels.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=117

The owner is closed for the week from flooding rains, but you can ask him any questions on line and get a personal detailed response about black powder revolver and gunsmithing questions from an experienced specialist.

Whisk · September 28, 2006, 02:55 PM

Sun: I used patches at first until I ran out. Then I just compressed the Triple SEven with the .454 balls and it worked fine so thats what I have been doing (I read too where Hodgon recommends ball right against powder for best results with Triple Seven).

I would like to Chrono the 25 gr loads as they seem to be clipping along pretty fast IMO. I have a 50 gal oil drum buried out about 50 yds and hit it (kerplunk) regularly so its reasonably accurate (minute of oildrum I guess).

I'm looking now at getting a little pocket pistola from Cabela's ($219) as this black powder shooting is a KITA....... really!

Shooting CVA 209 wolf 50 cal today. Gonna try 100 gr of Triple seven with powerbelt bullets.

(BTW, those damn round balls (outa my 44) ricochet like crazy! If I hit one of our cows my wife is gonna kill me!)

Smokin_Gun · October 1, 2006, 02:08 AM

Wisk looks like a little comnfusion in terminalogy. Patch is cloth used with a front loading single sot, wad is a wool or felt wad wad used in a cylinder revolver... that may help some. Well I got cornfuzed anyway...LoL!

Whisk · October 1, 2006, 05:57 PM

Patch, wad.....whatever....

I haven't been using either for awhile now, either for revolver or 50 cal rifle (Powerbelts over Triple Seven).

I saw a stainless Ruger Old Army in Gun Auction for 440...

Deal or no deal???

DoctorV · October 1, 2006, 10:31 PM

Hi Whisk

Had my first range fun with my 1858. I think I am hooked for good. But back to your topic: I used .454 and it worked out great. Again, this was my first time ever and the only caliber size, but the loading felt just right: enough resistance but the balls went in leaving shaved rings of lead. I shot some with lubed wads on the powder and some with nothing between the powder and the ball, just some lube on top. Tons of fun!!!

You were right about loading, too. No problem. The balls seem to center the loading lever.

Doc V

Whisk · October 2, 2006, 09:35 AM

Doc

I don't think it was the Angels either (either Ramiriz with the Chevy or Rodriguez the prison guard

) I think Steve was right that the ball self centers the plunger.

Its always nice though, to see someone have the same experiences as it is confirmation of sanity

(to some extent at any rate - you could be nuts too

) .............

Seriously, I AM nuts about the BP shooting. One of my buds that shoots BP alot is converting me to the "real stuff" but I still like the convenience, safety, clean-up ease of the Triple Seven. He does the full boat; buckskins, tipi's, flint locks, etc. Not quite ready for that yet but who knows

I know this ..... everyone I've met so far that shoots BP has been extremely helpful .............

Gonna get some of those lube pills from Smokin' too. Sounds like the perfect solution to grease problem in this heat.

Friday I put my Wonderlube in fridge and by time I got to my range it was liquid. And its not even that hot out right now. I saw some Bore Butter and thought about that but I'm gonna get some of the pills anyway just to have around when I need 'em..........

SeeThirty · June 3, 2007, 01:24 PM

I've seen that these revolvers are designed to take balls of a larger diameter, but I'm trying to determine the closest ball diameter to bore diameter.

Can anyone tell me what the barrel fits best for Pietta and Uberti 1858 .44 Remington reproductions? Thanks.

Reason of my interest, is I'm also considering conversion to the R&D cylinder at a later time.

Plink · June 3, 2007, 04:26 PM

The barrel isn't your limiting factor in ball size, the chamber size is. A larger ball will just shave more lead when you ram it into the cylinder, ending up the same size anyway.

For Piettas, the ball size is generally .451. For Ubertis, it's generally .454. For Rugers the .457 is preferred.

I find that using a slightly larger ball that shaves more lead is a bit more accurate because it creates a larger driving band on the ball. It's a lot harder to load though. When I used a cylinder loading stand and force .457 balls into my Uberti 1858, I get better groups, but I'm usually too lazy to do it.

September 26, 2006, 09:42 AM	#1
Whisk Member Join Date: September 11, 2006 Location: Ceres, CA Posts: 86	Caliber Sizes for Cap&Ball Revolvers I have a 44 Remington New Army. So I was going to purchas some 44 size balls for it. Gunsmith says: "Wait a minute there Whisk. Better mike those and your cylinder size for ya...." Sure enough the cylinders calibrated to .446 and the balls .440 (as advertised). Turns out I need .45+ size for this "44" cap&ball pistola. Never had a problem since no matter what kind of patches I use......

September 26, 2006, 10:45 AM	#2
sundance44s Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2006 Location: Hernando , Ms. Posts: 579	Sundance44s Most of the Remington 1858`s on the market today shave a lead ring off the ball when loading ... If a .451 ball shaves a lead ring you can use it .. if you go to a larger ball say a .454 or .457 all you are going to do is shave more lead when loading ( wasted lead ) I`ve got an old Euro Arms Remmie that doesn`t shave lead because the holes are chamfered .. but most today will shave a lead ring ..and thats all the lead ball you can get into those cylinder holes .

September 26, 2006, 10:59 AM	#3
Dave Markowitz Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2002 Location: SE PA Posts: 372	I'll have to respectfully disagree with sundance. I like shooting .457 balls in my .44s. You wind up with a large bearing surface which aides accuracy. For the same reason, I use .380s in my .36 Navy Colt, even though Uberti recommended .375 balls. The .380s gave much better accuracy. __________________ Dave Markowitz http://blogostuff.blogspot.com

October 1, 2006, 02:08 AM	#10
Smokin_Gun Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2005 Location: Mojave Desert, CA Posts: 1,195	Wisk looks like a little comnfusion in terminalogy. Patch is cloth used with a front loading single sot, wad is a wool or felt wad wad used in a cylinder revolver... that may help some. Well I got cornfuzed anyway...LoL! __________________ "I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington" SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A. SASS# 19634, ... Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php

October 1, 2006, 05:57 PM	#11
Whisk Member Join Date: September 11, 2006 Location: Ceres, CA Posts: 86	Patch, wad.....whatever.... I haven't been using either for awhile now, either for revolver or 50 cal rifle (Powerbelts over Triple Seven). I saw a stainless Ruger Old Army in Gun Auction for 440... Deal or no deal??? __________________ "Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance" http://www.lukefisher.com/napalm.wav

September 26, 2006, 02:28 PM	#4
Whisk Member Join Date: September 11, 2006 Location: Ceres, CA Posts: 86	But Sundance, does that mean you can shoot .440 size balls without a larger patch or what

September 26, 2006, 02:52 PM	#5
Steve499 Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Central Missouri Posts: 533	You'll have to save the .440 balls for a single shot .45, either rifle or pistol, which uses a patched ball. The percussion revolvers are designed to be loaded with balls larger than the cylinder dimension without any patch. Some use felt wads but that's another subject which has no bearing on the correct ball size needed for a .44 revolver. Depending on individual tolerance variations, a .451, .454 or .457 ball will be needed for a revolver. If the balls are pure lead, I'd go out on a limb and say .457 balls would work in almost any .44 revolver. If you are casting balls out of unknown lead alloys, you might have to go to a smaller ball size to make loading easier. I use .451s in my Pietta .44 Remington, which give me good accuracy and easy loading, but I only use them because I glommed onto a .451 mold really cheap. If I were buying a new one, I'd choose a .454 for my pistol. Steve

September 26, 2006, 04:37 PM	#6
sundance44s Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2006 Location: Hernando , Ms. Posts: 579	Whisk ... i thought i saw the word patch in your question .. you won`t use a patch on a revolver as stated . I do know some shooters that use patches on old colt reproductions that have chamfered cylinders .. but thats another story ... you stated you have a 44 Remington .. that one wouldn`t need a patch at all eaither way .... wonder wads can be used but they aren`t a patch they just fit over the powder charge before you load the ball not around the ball like a patch . I`ve never used the wonder wads .. but i do dab a spot of crisco / beeswax mix over the top of the balls ..just to releive the barrel and cylinder pin fouling ..which prevents chain fires too at least from the front .. the wonderwads are suppose to prevent this too .

September 27, 2006, 10:11 AM	#7
Plastic Cowboy Junior Member Join Date: September 21, 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 9	I read somewhere that you can place some very fine emory cloth or sand paper over the chamber and twist a marble around in it to bevel the opening slightly.....this would cause the roundball to be compressed rather than shave a ring off the outside when pressed in. I haven't tried this yet but I plan to in the future. As long as you use a very fine abrasive it doesn't seem like you could do any real harm. I think the point is to cause less deformation of the ball potentially increasing accuracy. anybody tried this???

September 27, 2006, 12:05 PM	#8
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	Virtually all of the Italian revolvers except for a top competition Pietta model have cylinder chambers with dimensions that are smaller than the rifling in the barrel. There is also a barrel throat that affects accuracy, so it's not so much the shape of the ball as it is these critical dimensional tolerances that affect accruacy. Unless you are shooting a Ruger Old Army, you should look at this website where the gunsmith/owner goes to great lengths to acurize and fine tune cap & ball revolvers at very reasonable rates. He's a real expert with lots of experience, and you can check out his results and get info. from various threads on the site: http://www.bigironbarrels.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=85 http://www.bigironbarrels.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=117 The owner is closed for the week from flooding rains, but you can ask him any questions on line and get a personal detailed response about black powder revolver and gunsmithing questions from an experienced specialist.

September 28, 2006, 02:55 PM	#9
Whisk Member Join Date: September 11, 2006 Location: Ceres, CA Posts: 86	Sun: I used patches at first until I ran out. Then I just compressed the Triple SEven with the .454 balls and it worked fine so thats what I have been doing (I read too where Hodgon recommends ball right against powder for best results with Triple Seven). I would like to Chrono the 25 gr loads as they seem to be clipping along pretty fast IMO. I have a 50 gal oil drum buried out about 50 yds and hit it (kerplunk) regularly so its reasonably accurate (minute of oildrum I guess). I'm looking now at getting a little pocket pistola from Cabela's ($219) as this black powder shooting is a KITA....... really! Shooting CVA 209 wolf 50 cal today. Gonna try 100 gr of Triple seven with powerbelt bullets. (BTW, those damn round balls (outa my 44) ricochet like crazy! If I hit one of our cows my wife is gonna kill me!)

October 1, 2006, 10:31 PM	#12
DoctorV Junior Member Join Date: September 29, 2006 Posts: 6	Hi Whisk Had my first range fun with my 1858. I think I am hooked for good. But back to your topic: I used .454 and it worked out great. Again, this was my first time ever and the only caliber size, but the loading felt just right: enough resistance but the balls went in leaving shaved rings of lead. I shot some with lubed wads on the powder and some with nothing between the powder and the ball, just some lube on top. Tons of fun!!! You were right about loading, too. No problem. The balls seem to center the loading lever. Doc V

October 2, 2006, 09:35 AM	#13
Whisk Member Join Date: September 11, 2006 Location: Ceres, CA Posts: 86	Doc I don't think it was the Angels either (either Ramiriz with the Chevy or Rodriguez the prison guard ) I think Steve was right that the ball self centers the plunger. Its always nice though, to see someone have the same experiences as it is confirmation of sanity (to some extent at any rate - you could be nuts too ) ............. Seriously, I AM nuts about the BP shooting. One of my buds that shoots BP alot is converting me to the "real stuff" but I still like the convenience, safety, clean-up ease of the Triple Seven. He does the full boat; buckskins, tipi's, flint locks, etc. Not quite ready for that yet but who knows I know this ..... everyone I've met so far that shoots BP has been extremely helpful ............. Gonna get some of those lube pills from Smokin' too. Sounds like the perfect solution to grease problem in this heat. Friday I put my Wonderlube in fridge and by time I got to my range it was liquid. And its not even that hot out right now. I saw some Bore Butter and thought about that but I'm gonna get some of the pills anyway just to have around when I need 'em.......... __________________ "Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance" http://www.lukefisher.com/napalm.wav

June 3, 2007, 01:24 PM	#14
SeeThirty Junior Member Join Date: June 3, 2007 Location: Florida USA Posts: 12	Re: Caliber Sizes for Cap&Ball Revolvers I've seen that these revolvers are designed to take balls of a larger diameter, but I'm trying to determine the closest ball diameter to bore diameter. Can anyone tell me what the barrel fits best for Pietta and Uberti 1858 .44 Remington reproductions? Thanks. Reason of my interest, is I'm also considering conversion to the R&D cylinder at a later time.

June 3, 2007, 04:26 PM	#15
Plink Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: W. Texas Posts: 83	The barrel isn't your limiting factor in ball size, the chamber size is. A larger ball will just shave more lead when you ram it into the cylinder, ending up the same size anyway. For Piettas, the ball size is generally .451. For Ubertis, it's generally .454. For Rugers the .457 is preferred. I find that using a slightly larger ball that shaves more lead is a bit more accurate because it creates a larger driving band on the ball. It's a lot harder to load though. When I used a cylinder loading stand and force .457 balls into my Uberti 1858, I get better groups, but I'm usually too lazy to do it.