Transitioning to rifle reloading : evaluating my rifle.

Kayser · May 28, 2006, 01:39 PM

Been reloading pistols for a while now and am about to embark on some rifle reloading. I've got a few questions, mostly about gauging the "state" of my rifle to figure out how far I can take it in terms of accuracy.

For some backrground - it's a Remington 700 VS, around 6 years old. Bought new. It's always been a decent shooter - it has it's solid 1 moa days when my game is good, and is something around 2 moa+ on my average days.

However, the one notable thing about it which has annoyed me to no end is that it is incredibly finnicky about ammo. Quite simply - it hates absolutely anything above 150gr. I've tried all the factory stuff of all ranges of cost and bullet weight. Even the super-mega boattail antimatter heat seeking deer killers don't do well. I eventually settled on the very humble 150 gr Federal Core-Lokt low end stuff. Anything else and the groups open way up and become highly unpredictable. I have yet to hear a great explanation of why the rifle is like this.

More data : I've been collecting brass for a few years, and the rifle has always left visibly off-center primer strikes, at a consistent distance from dead center.

Finally : I ran a big batch of fired brass through the full length sizer. My Hornady manual lists max length at 2.015", with trim length of 2.005". After resizing, the brass is all consistently at 2.04" +/- 0.005". Also, each round has a slight "lip" of raised brass at the mouth as if it were pushing into no-man's land in the die. Have not tried trimming it yet to see if these lips go away. Was kind of curious if this was indicative of a headspace problem.

So, I guess I'm just looking for a little feedback from the experts on where my rifle's at, and what I should be focusing on to really punch the accuracy up with the reloads.

I'm gonna start working up loads using IMR 4895 and some 150gr Hornady's. I may be getting ahead of myself, but I also bought one of those Stoney Point COL adjusters that you stick into the chamber to measure actual action length.

**Unclenick** · May 28, 2006, 02:34 PM

the off-center firing pin bothers me. They are always a slight bit off center because the SAMMI standard chambers are a few thousandths wider than the SAMMI max case diameters, so the case lies in the chamber at a very slight angle if it is full-length resized. If you have a significant off-center hit (more than other rifles you've seen) you likely either have a chamber that is too wide at the base or is tilting off axis in the bore. This may explain the bullet favoritism in that a shorter bullet has an easier time turning a slight corner and correcting itself. I would expect a boattail to do better than a spire point in this instance because its bearing surface is shorter.

A chamber that is too wide at the base results if the gun is chambered by a reamer whose floating holder jammed or which was fed too fast or fed from a fixed but inexactly aligned holder like a tailstock chuck. Any of this can cause it to favor one side during cutting rather than cutting evenly, which increases the taper angle cut to the base. You can test for this by measuring your fired cases at their widest point (not counting the rim). Assuming you have a .308, this should be less than .4714 inches (SAMMI chamber spec max; 0.011" over case max) 0.2" ahead of the back edge of the case.

Normally the mouth of a case neck springs back slightly narrower than rest of the neck. This is because the rest is epanded to chamber diameter as it opens up around the bullet to let go of it as pressure builds. Once the bullet starts to travel, the last little bit of the neck lets the pressure blow by into the freebore, at which point it equalizes around the last couple hundredths of an inch of neck and there is no pressure differential to stretch it. If you have cases the other way around, with the neck mouth bigger than the rest, then you could have a ring in the neck portion of the chamber that is wider than the rest of the neck. It would be the first one I've ever heard of in that location, but nothing's impossible.

Off axis, overwide, or ringed chambers need to be recut or the barrel replaced. I would contact Remington before paying a gunsmith. They will likely inspect it for free and, if they determine there is a safety issue (a bad chamber would be one) they may well replace the barrel free to avoid liability issues. Even if they charged you, you've then got a gun that has had some custom attention given to it, and that usually means a better shooter. The factory usually doesn't care whether you are the original owner or not, for those same liability issue reasons.

One other explaination for the off-center firing pin strike might be a substantially undersize bolt that is too loose in the bolt way. This is also a reason for a return to the factory.

Nick

Leftoverdj · May 28, 2006, 02:39 PM

That degree of finickiness is almost always indicative of a bedding problem. I'd do, or have done, a rebed before I went any farther. The offcenter firing pin strike is less than desireable, but unlikely to be causing any problems unless it is WAY off center. It's also a bear to correct. I'd ignore it as long as any portion of the pin strikes the exact center of the primer.

I'm not sure I'm visualizing your lip at the case mouth correctly, but I'm guessing that it's nothing more than the crimp failing to fully iron out.

Kayser · May 28, 2006, 03:14 PM

I'd post some detailed images, but my **^@#$ digital camera is toast, and I'm still waiting for the new one to arrive. I'll resurrect this thread once I can post pics.

More inspection reveals lots of set-back primers - visibly protruding from the primer pocket. There are also a number of flattened primers. Hrm.

Thanks for the info. One question though : is that much case stretching (2.04") within standard tolerances for once-fired factory brass?

Leftoverdj · May 28, 2006, 03:30 PM

What is your case length before resizing? Much stretching comes from being dragged over the expander ball in the course of resizing and has nothing to do with the gun. A carbide expander ball, and/or inside neck lubing will reduce that factor.

Since you have been shooting factory ammo, you don't really know the original case length. Loading and shooting a batch that you have personally trimmed to 2.005 will give you a much better handle on just what is going.

**Unclenick** · May 28, 2006, 03:46 PM

Yikes! I missed that! My eyes missed the lack of a trailing zero on 2.04". The answer is NO! SAMMI chamber standard is 2.025". If you are 2.040" in your cases you are longer than SAMMI allows and you are getting your necks crammed into the narrowing down from the neck space to the freebore. THIS CAN CREATE DANGEROUS PRESSURES, and is why you have primer setback. It is also creating the lump of brass at the casemouth. You MUST get this gun and chamber inspected before shooting it again. Also take your ammo along to the gunsmith in case the defect is there!

A case made at SAMMI Max of 2.015 should not stretch out more than about 0.005" in a single firing to no more than 2.020". That stays within the SAMMI chamber spec.

Nick

Edit: P.S. I think you have a short chamber and the go-gauge won't go. When you chamber a round you are probably getting a snug fit and operating the bolt is sizing the brass into the chamber, squirting the neck into the chamber and lengthening it up against the freebore shoulder. A go gauge will tell. If you have something really wierd, like your rifle got the roughing reamer but not the finishing reamer, Remington should fix that free.

Kayser · May 28, 2006, 04:12 PM

Ok - here's a small snafu. My snazzy Starrett calipers have apparently died. I wasn't paying attention while typing this up, but when I close the calipers, they were 0.02" from zero. Upon further manipulation, I'm feeling some clunkiness in there, and it's not holding any kind of zero. I had done a bunch of machine work over the week and it's entirely possible I managed to fubar them.

So, redoing my measurements with the ol' backup Frankford Arsenal calipers, here's what I've got:

PRE-resizing, once fired brass : I'm seeing lengths around 2.014" +/- 0.002". This includes both cases with setback primers and non-setback primers. There are a couple of shorties at ~2.008". So that would seem to mean that my chamber is probably pretty close to the SAAMI 2.015". Max case widths are measuring 0.470 +/- 0.001". This also seems on spec.

POST-resizing, once fired brass : I'm seeing lengths ranging from 2.012" - 2.02" with most falling around 2.015". Max case widths near the head are measuring roughly 0.468-ish.

Note : the Frankford Arsenal calipers aren't the greatest in the universe, and I've seen them off by 0.001" and occasionally more.

Also - the "lipping" I'm seeing is post-sizing, and is most prevalent on the ones which are ending up on the upper end of length (2.02"). I'm not seeing any evidence of it in the just-fired brass. To me, this implies die manipulation. I'll do some experimentation on clean just-fired brass and see if I can catch the die doing it.

Boy am I glad I haven't done any reloading this week. I'll have to re-measure some of my recent stuff for a sanity check though.

I'll also have my gunsmith give it a quick check next time I hit the range.

918v · May 28, 2006, 04:28 PM

You should section one of your fired cases to see what the case head looks like. Your brass should not size to 2.040". If your headspace is off, send your rifle back to Remington, or have a gunsmith set the barrel back one turn and rechamber correctly. Get a decent crown cut on it too. The VS has an HS stock. As long as the barrel does not rub on the stock, you do not have bedding issues. Off-center firing-pin strikes are common in many rifles because the chamber is typically .005-.007" larher at the base than the case head. The extractor pushes the case head against the left side of the chamber, yet the firing-pin strikes in line with the bore center. Hence, the indentation is off. This is not a big deal, as none of the FL dies return the case to original dimentions. The base is always left a few thousands larger than when it was unfired. Even small-base dies leave the case head .001" larger than new.

**44 AMP** · May 29, 2006, 12:03 AM

what kind of sizing die are you using, and how is it adjusted?

918v · May 29, 2006, 12:07 AM

I doubt there is any die out there that induces .025" of case stretch. Maybe he's measuring incorrectly.

Harry Bonar · May 29, 2006, 09:59 AM

Dear Sir:
Any case measurements (other than length AFTER full length resizing) are meaningless! After resizing ALWAYS trim to trim length in the manual (which is usually .010 less than SAAMI length).
Now, we must have a discussion about full length resizing!
Most manuals and die instructions say to screw the sizer down against the shell holder! WRONG!!!
Take your rifle, clean the chamber with bolt OUT and screw sizer, with ram at full stroke (not camed over) down against the shell holder - then back off about 1/8th turn and size a case.
Insert bolt and sized trimed case in chamber and try to close bolt - it might start but not close. Keep screwing die in a small amount till you can feel the bolt close on the resized, trimed case; THIS IS THE PROPER DIE SETTING FOR THAT RIFLE!
If you follow die instructions and screw sizer down against shell holder (especially with belted magnums which should, after the first firing, should always be headspaced on the sholder, given proper chamber dms') you are theoretically sizing to factory specs. If your chamber is just under no-go limits you will experience stretching around head and experience, over time, incipient case head stretch and separation. I have never, never found a Remington rifle with "bad" headspace! Your trouble is possibly your full length sizing. As Nick correctly says, neglecting case triming can cause the neck to crimp the bullet and cause astronomicat pressures (rifle actions are designed to take TWICE the rated SAAMI pressures (of course brass will let loose at 70,000 cup).
A good headspace check on your rifle can be checked like this: a new factory case with a .006 paper on bolt face should close with feel or with no play If you do this your gun is o.k.
Also, as Nick says, if this is fuzzy send it to Remington but I think your rifle is o.k.
The off center primer strike, unless excessive, is of no consequence (as a matter of fack in 45ACP we like that to a small degree so that mixture is crushed on the side if the anvil). But, as Nick says, your case may be so excessively sized that it's sloppy in the chamber and your protruding primers indicate what Nick says!
If in any doubt get your headspace checked! With gauges!
Harry B.

May 28, 2006, 01:39 PM	#1
Kayser Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2002 Location: Illinois :( Posts: 550	Transitioning to rifle reloading : evaluating my rifle. Been reloading pistols for a while now and am about to embark on some rifle reloading. I've got a few questions, mostly about gauging the "state" of my rifle to figure out how far I can take it in terms of accuracy. For some backrground - it's a Remington 700 VS, around 6 years old. Bought new. It's always been a decent shooter - it has it's solid 1 moa days when my game is good, and is something around 2 moa+ on my average days. However, the one notable thing about it which has annoyed me to no end is that it is incredibly finnicky about ammo. Quite simply - it hates absolutely anything above 150gr. I've tried all the factory stuff of all ranges of cost and bullet weight. Even the super-mega boattail antimatter heat seeking deer killers don't do well. I eventually settled on the very humble 150 gr Federal Core-Lokt low end stuff. Anything else and the groups open way up and become highly unpredictable. I have yet to hear a great explanation of why the rifle is like this. More data : I've been collecting brass for a few years, and the rifle has always left visibly off-center primer strikes, at a consistent distance from dead center. Finally : I ran a big batch of fired brass through the full length sizer. My Hornady manual lists max length at 2.015", with trim length of 2.005". After resizing, the brass is all consistently at 2.04" +/- 0.005". Also, each round has a slight "lip" of raised brass at the mouth as if it were pushing into no-man's land in the die. Have not tried trimming it yet to see if these lips go away. Was kind of curious if this was indicative of a headspace problem. So, I guess I'm just looking for a little feedback from the experts on where my rifle's at, and what I should be focusing on to really punch the accuracy up with the reloads. I'm gonna start working up loads using IMR 4895 and some 150gr Hornady's. I may be getting ahead of myself, but I also bought one of those Stoney Point COL adjusters that you stick into the chamber to measure actual action length. __________________ ----------------- Box Of Truth Afficionado!

May 28, 2006, 02:34 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	the off-center firing pin bothers me. They are always a slight bit off center because the SAMMI standard chambers are a few thousandths wider than the SAMMI max case diameters, so the case lies in the chamber at a very slight angle if it is full-length resized. If you have a significant off-center hit (more than other rifles you've seen) you likely either have a chamber that is too wide at the base or is tilting off axis in the bore. This may explain the bullet favoritism in that a shorter bullet has an easier time turning a slight corner and correcting itself. I would expect a boattail to do better than a spire point in this instance because its bearing surface is shorter. A chamber that is too wide at the base results if the gun is chambered by a reamer whose floating holder jammed or which was fed too fast or fed from a fixed but inexactly aligned holder like a tailstock chuck. Any of this can cause it to favor one side during cutting rather than cutting evenly, which increases the taper angle cut to the base. You can test for this by measuring your fired cases at their widest point (not counting the rim). Assuming you have a .308, this should be less than .4714 inches (SAMMI chamber spec max; 0.011" over case max) 0.2" ahead of the back edge of the case. Normally the mouth of a case neck springs back slightly narrower than rest of the neck. This is because the rest is epanded to chamber diameter as it opens up around the bullet to let go of it as pressure builds. Once the bullet starts to travel, the last little bit of the neck lets the pressure blow by into the freebore, at which point it equalizes around the last couple hundredths of an inch of neck and there is no pressure differential to stretch it. If you have cases the other way around, with the neck mouth bigger than the rest, then you could have a ring in the neck portion of the chamber that is wider than the rest of the neck. It would be the first one I've ever heard of in that location, but nothing's impossible. Off axis, overwide, or ringed chambers need to be recut or the barrel replaced. I would contact Remington before paying a gunsmith. They will likely inspect it for free and, if they determine there is a safety issue (a bad chamber would be one) they may well replace the barrel free to avoid liability issues. Even if they charged you, you've then got a gun that has had some custom attention given to it, and that usually means a better shooter. The factory usually doesn't care whether you are the original owner or not, for those same liability issue reasons. One other explaination for the off-center firing pin strike might be a substantially undersize bolt that is too loose in the bolt way. This is also a reason for a return to the factory. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 28, 2006, 03:14 PM	#4
Kayser Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2002 Location: Illinois :( Posts: 550	I'd post some detailed images, but my **^@#$ digital camera is toast, and I'm still waiting for the new one to arrive. I'll resurrect this thread once I can post pics. More inspection reveals lots of set-back primers - visibly protruding from the primer pocket. There are also a number of flattened primers. Hrm. Thanks for the info. One question though : is that much case stretching (2.04") within standard tolerances for once-fired factory brass? __________________ ----------------- Box Of Truth Afficionado!

May 28, 2006, 03:46 PM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Danger Will Robinson Yikes! I missed that! My eyes missed the lack of a trailing zero on 2.04". The answer is NO! SAMMI chamber standard is 2.025". If you are 2.040" in your cases you are longer than SAMMI allows and you are getting your necks crammed into the narrowing down from the neck space to the freebore. THIS CAN CREATE DANGEROUS PRESSURES, and is why you have primer setback. It is also creating the lump of brass at the casemouth. You MUST get this gun and chamber inspected before shooting it again. Also take your ammo along to the gunsmith in case the defect is there! A case made at SAMMI Max of 2.015 should not stretch out more than about 0.005" in a single firing to no more than 2.020". That stays within the SAMMI chamber spec. Nick Edit: P.S. I think you have a short chamber and the go-gauge won't go. When you chamber a round you are probably getting a snug fit and operating the bolt is sizing the brass into the chamber, squirting the neck into the chamber and lengthening it up against the freebore shoulder. A go gauge will tell. If you have something really wierd, like your rifle got the roughing reamer but not the finishing reamer, Remington should fix that free. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 28, 2006, 04:12 PM	#7
Kayser Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2002 Location: Illinois :( Posts: 550	Ok - here's a small snafu. My snazzy Starrett calipers have apparently died. I wasn't paying attention while typing this up, but when I close the calipers, they were 0.02" from zero. Upon further manipulation, I'm feeling some clunkiness in there, and it's not holding any kind of zero. I had done a bunch of machine work over the week and it's entirely possible I managed to fubar them. So, redoing my measurements with the ol' backup Frankford Arsenal calipers, here's what I've got: PRE-resizing, once fired brass : I'm seeing lengths around 2.014" +/- 0.002". This includes both cases with setback primers and non-setback primers. There are a couple of shorties at ~2.008". So that would seem to mean that my chamber is probably pretty close to the SAAMI 2.015". Max case widths are measuring 0.470 +/- 0.001". This also seems on spec. POST-resizing, once fired brass : I'm seeing lengths ranging from 2.012" - 2.02" with most falling around 2.015". Max case widths near the head are measuring roughly 0.468-ish. Note : the Frankford Arsenal calipers aren't the greatest in the universe, and I've seen them off by 0.001" and occasionally more. Also - the "lipping" I'm seeing is post-sizing, and is most prevalent on the ones which are ending up on the upper end of length (2.02"). I'm not seeing any evidence of it in the just-fired brass. To me, this implies die manipulation. I'll do some experimentation on clean just-fired brass and see if I can catch the die doing it. Boy am I glad I haven't done any reloading this week. I'll have to re-measure some of my recent stuff for a sanity check though. I'll also have my gunsmith give it a quick check next time I hit the range. __________________ ----------------- Box Of Truth Afficionado!

May 28, 2006, 02:39 PM	#3
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	That degree of finickiness is almost always indicative of a bedding problem. I'd do, or have done, a rebed before I went any farther. The offcenter firing pin strike is less than desireable, but unlikely to be causing any problems unless it is WAY off center. It's also a bear to correct. I'd ignore it as long as any portion of the pin strikes the exact center of the primer. I'm not sure I'm visualizing your lip at the case mouth correctly, but I'm guessing that it's nothing more than the crimp failing to fully iron out.

May 28, 2006, 03:30 PM	#5
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	What is your case length before resizing? Much stretching comes from being dragged over the expander ball in the course of resizing and has nothing to do with the gun. A carbide expander ball, and/or inside neck lubing will reduce that factor. Since you have been shooting factory ammo, you don't really know the original case length. Loading and shooting a batch that you have personally trimmed to 2.005 will give you a much better handle on just what is going.

May 28, 2006, 04:28 PM	#8
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	You should section one of your fired cases to see what the case head looks like. Your brass should not size to 2.040". If your headspace is off, send your rifle back to Remington, or have a gunsmith set the barrel back one turn and rechamber correctly. Get a decent crown cut on it too. The VS has an HS stock. As long as the barrel does not rub on the stock, you do not have bedding issues. Off-center firing-pin strikes are common in many rifles because the chamber is typically .005-.007" larher at the base than the case head. The extractor pushes the case head against the left side of the chamber, yet the firing-pin strikes in line with the bore center. Hence, the indentation is off. This is not a big deal, as none of the FL dies return the case to original dimentions. The base is always left a few thousands larger than when it was unfired. Even small-base dies leave the case head .001" larger than new.

May 29, 2006, 12:03 AM	#9
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	curious what kind of sizing die are you using, and how is it adjusted?

May 29, 2006, 12:07 AM	#10
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	I doubt there is any die out there that induces .025" of case stretch. Maybe he's measuring incorrectly.

May 29, 2006, 09:59 AM	#11
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	evaluating rifle Dear Sir: Any case measurements (other than length AFTER full length resizing) are meaningless! After resizing ALWAYS trim to trim length in the manual (which is usually .010 less than SAAMI length). Now, we must have a discussion about full length resizing! Most manuals and die instructions say to screw the sizer down against the shell holder! WRONG!!! Take your rifle, clean the chamber with bolt OUT and screw sizer, with ram at full stroke (not camed over) down against the shell holder - then back off about 1/8th turn and size a case. Insert bolt and sized trimed case in chamber and try to close bolt - it might start but not close. Keep screwing die in a small amount till you can feel the bolt close on the resized, trimed case; THIS IS THE PROPER DIE SETTING FOR THAT RIFLE! If you follow die instructions and screw sizer down against shell holder (especially with belted magnums which should, after the first firing, should always be headspaced on the sholder, given proper chamber dms') you are theoretically sizing to factory specs. If your chamber is just under no-go limits you will experience stretching around head and experience, over time, incipient case head stretch and separation. I have never, never found a Remington rifle with "bad" headspace! Your trouble is possibly your full length sizing. As Nick correctly says, neglecting case triming can cause the neck to crimp the bullet and cause astronomicat pressures (rifle actions are designed to take TWICE the rated SAAMI pressures (of course brass will let loose at 70,000 cup). A good headspace check on your rifle can be checked like this: a new factory case with a .006 paper on bolt face should close with feel or with no play If you do this your gun is o.k. Also, as Nick says, if this is fuzzy send it to Remington but I think your rifle is o.k. The off center primer strike, unless excessive, is of no consequence (as a matter of fack in 45ACP we like that to a small degree so that mixture is crushed on the side if the anvil). But, as Nick says, your case may be so excessively sized that it's sloppy in the chamber and your protruding primers indicate what Nick says! If in any doubt get your headspace checked! With gauges! Harry B.