Would you shoot these??

[zanemoseley]

Ok I'm working up a long range 75 grain .223 Rem load for an upcoming rifle. For some reason I tend to work on loads before I have a gun lol. These may be tested in my friend's AR, another friend is also about to get a .223 bolt gun which may be even better.

Here's the specs based off Hogdon load data on their site:

-Lake City brass (decapped, resized, trimmed to 1.750, primer pocket swage & uniform, flash hole debur)
- CCI Small Rifle Primer
- 23.5 Grains Varget (Hogdon data says 22.5 - 25.0)
- Berger 75 Grain VLD, 2.250" COL, no crimp

Now for the obvious problem which I somehow overlooked while loading the 25 round batch, since I've had some problems in the past with .308 brass sticking in the die I really lubed them up with spray lube, for some reason I thought the .223 brass may stick worse since it is smaller diameter. The result was about 75% of the brass has dented necks, the worse ones are shown below.

So I'm worried the volume was effected by the dents (also read military brass has slightly thicker wall and less volume), I don't think this charge weight was supposed to be a compressed load yet I got a bit of powder crunching on a portion of the rounds. I pulled a few bullets later and all tested were right on 23.5 so am confident that the charge weight was correct. I was also getting a little nervous since it seems like I had to seat the bullets really deep to get the 2.250 COL, I guess .223's run deeper than .308 (the only other metallic rifle I've loaded for), however I'm obviously loading one of the heavier/longer 22 cal bullets for this .223 Rem.

I think they should be fine but I wanted to get some opinions from others that have loaded longer than me. I will adjust my lube process to prevent this on future loading.

[Ozzieman]

Is the COL correct? Not much bullet sticking out. It looks like the bullet is still tapering bellow the top of the case.
I have shot dents out of 223 cases but those are very deep.
Are those once fired or more?
As cheep as 223 brass is I would pull and toss but I have thousands of empty 223.

[Mobuck]

"Ok I'm working up a long range 75 grain .223 Rem load for an upcoming rifle. For some reason I tend to work on loads before I have a gun lol. These may be tested in my friend's AR,"

How is "working up" a load using someone else's rifle going to help YOU?
The case dents are of far less concern than the fact that you seem to have the bullets seated too deep(to the point of having the case mouth on the ogive).

[condor bravo]

Yes I would shoot them regardless of the oil dents but it always makes me annoyed that I can't view photos posted in Photobucket since obviously I don't know how to utilize Photobucket.

[zanemoseley]

Yes they measure 2.250" COL. Here's a screen capture of the Hornady load data.

[Edit: deleted. You can't post copyrighted material on the forum without permission from the owner. See forum copyright policy. Technically, the data facts are not copyrightable—only the presentation of it— so you can report the data by typing it.}

Here's the exact bullets I bought http://www.midwayusa.com/product/195...ail-box-of-100

Would you have used this load data for these bullets? Yes they do seem loaded deep but this is the best load data I could find for this type/weight bullet.

My Lyman manual doesn't have a 75 grain HPBT, they do have a 77 grain listed with a COL of 2.260", so I'm a big .010" below that using this data. The 77 grain lists 22.5-25.0 grains of Varget which is the same as the Hogdon data.

I guess I could call Berger and see what COL they recommend for this bullet.

[Clark]

Shooting them is the best way to get those dents out.

[zanemoseley]

Also I'm loading these more for fun at this point, obviously it won't tell me what my soon to be rifle will shoot. Just seeing how the bullets shoot.

[Ozzieman]

Your COL looks like a good number but I don't like how far that bullet going to jump before hitting the lands.
Might be the wrong bullet for 223
One question, why did you start out with such a heavy bullet for a 223?
My REM 700 likes 55 to 60 best.

[zanemoseley]

I plan on shooting high power and want to run 1 load for 200, 300 and 600 yard courses. Some even shoot the 80 grain bullets.

[Ifishsum]

In my experience, those VLD style bullets (secant ogive) need to be seated long and close to the lands to shoot well. For the AR that will be for the single load stages as they generally won't fit in the magazine like that (I use 80 SMK and 82 Bergers @600). For mag length bullets in the AR, the 75 Hornady BTHP and the 77 Sierra MK are top choices IMO (assuming your twist rate is 7 or 8).

The lube dents aren't really a problem to me. But I agree with some others that working up loads in a different rifle may not give you much useful data, unless you're building a rifle with the same barrel and chambered by the same smith. I had to reduce most of my loads by 1.5-2 grs when I got the Compass Lake upper with their match chamber, as every load for my first service rifle showed pressure signs in the new one. Especially if you're trying to wring as much velocity as safely possible for the long line. YMMV of course.

[zanemoseley]

I called Berger and spoke with one of their techs, he said the 2.250 should be fine, said the max I'd get with a magazine load would be 2.255-2.260.

I mention to him how the tapered ogive kinda extends into the brass. He said the 75 grain VLD is more suited to single loading and suggest I try the 73 grain VLD next time for magazine loads. I would prefer to get one load that will work for 200-600 yards so that means it needs to be magazine compatible. If I get good enough for it to start mattering then I can go to 2 loads, one single fed long loads and a shorter load for magazine required strings.

Sounds like the dents shouldn't be a safety issue since I'm a good ways below max.

[Unclenick]

QuickLOAD shows the load compressed by those long bullets at that seating depth, and the pressure slightly higher with the Bergers than with the JLK VLD's. The fact the bullet shoulder is below the neck is not a show stopper by itself. HSM loads the 80 grain SMK that way, though the gap is smaller. But it does change the powder space and pressure dynamic. Most folks using the long bullets seat them longer than the magazine will accept, then load them singly.

It's probably not going to be dangerous, but I've seen starting loads that were already at maximum for the gun they were tried in. So, with a compressed load for an unfamiliar gun with a bullet really designed for single loading rather than magazine feed, I would be at the Starting Load (it has that name for a reason; "Starting" means where you begin) or a little below with the long bullet. I certainly would not starting somewhere in the middle of a given load range; especially not with a different brand of bullet and different brand of case and different brand of primer. Any one of those factors can cause 10% difference in peak pressure just by itself in some circumstances. Throw in that the powder charge is compressed with that long bullet seated that deeply, and you have a potential to see pressures approaching proof loads. I don't think that's likely to happen, but be aware the potential is there. In this instance the brass is likely not an issue as 5.56 LC brass tends to have a little more capacity than the Winchester .223 brass used by Hodgdon, but not significantly more. The other two factors, though, are a shot in the dark until proven otherwise.

In your shoes I would not pull down the ammo, as it may be perfectly OK. But I would either take more cases and bullets or pull down a few that you have already loaded and reduce the charge until it just filled the case without compression at your seating depth. This should be about 22 grains of powder. Start there, and work up to the load you have in 0.5 grain steps, keeping an eye peeled for pressure signs. You only need one round of each test load unless a pressure sign shows up with one of them, at which point you need to fire a second round like it to see if you get the same sign. If you can't get to the load you have put together already without pressure signs, then you'll need to pull those loads down and start over.

Read this. Don't be too casual about where you start your loads. It's hard to blow up a modern gun, but you can sure pit the bolt face with pierced primers and ruin cases and or them into near failure condition or, even, blow out a case and damage the bolt and usually the magazine and stock parts when it happens. If you look at enough load data, you eventually spot one book whose maximum is below some other book's minimum. If your gun and bullet choice happen to match the more conservative load data better, then starting in the middle of the higher load data would be well over your gun's comfort zone for long term wear and tear resistance.

[T. O'Heir]

The dents are from too much lube. Won't bother anything. I'd be inclined to seat to 2.280", but you're fine at 2.250".
You work the load up or just pick it?

[TimSr]

I'd shoot 'em.

[Fotheringill]

I am almost a virgin to reloading but-

I have a Savage .223 model 12 F/TR. I cannot get near to 2.260 or 2.520 in OAL without having rifling marks very high up on the side of the bullet. In fact, to seat without getting marks when chambering, I am at 2.2450. This is with Sierra Match Kings 77gr. Ogive is around 1.8430.

I fired 50 rounds Sunday without anything going bluey, powder marks only around neck and normal primer and pocket.

BTW- Before anyone suggests I contact Savage, I did and there answer was they have no information on reloading.

[Jim243]

The dents in the cases is from too much lube. This will present NO problems for your loads and will be gone after you pull the trigger. As to the OAL it is just right for the 75 grain 223's. I have used the 75 grain 223's for years without any problem loading them at 2.250 OAL for my AR and bolt action mag fed (AR Mag) rifle.

Have fun, stay safe, and don't listen to feather merchants (people who have not used or shot them this way).

Jim

Generally the 223 case will hold 25.5 grains of powder (powder used for 223 rounds - 52 to 55 grain bullets) so your load of 23.5 grains (correct for that weight of bullet), will not give you a compressed load.

[Woolecox]

I don't think those VLD bulllets you are using are designed for the AR. About a year or so ago, I got hold of the 77 OTM Tactical bullets from Berger. These are a little shorter, have a steeper ogive similar to the 77 SMK.

The Bergers actually shoot a little better than the SMK's out of my Larue 20". I am using Ramshot TAC powder and their published load data for the 5.56 chamber. I was also getting a few slam fires from CCI primers but #41's and Winchester primers don't do that. Most of the time I use bulk once fired Lake City brass. Groups tighten up a bit with Lapua. Velocity is 2772 FPS.

I also seat them out to the max of 2.26". Accuracy is out standing. I shot these groups off a bipod with 10X scope.

100 yards, 3 shots.




3 shots 200 yards

[4runnerman]

I have a 600 yard load for my 223 bolt, but they are single load using a 75 gn A Max bullet.

[zanemoseley]

So sounds like the debts are no biggie.

Just to be sure about the charge I'm gonna load perhaps 9 more, 3 at 22.0 grains, 3 at 22.5 grains and e at 23.0 grains. I'll watch for pressure signs as I go. Also when I get to my 25 loaded at 23.5 I'll start with the ones with no dents and move to the dented ones last.

[Colorado Redneck]

That is a prudent approach. And when you get your rifle, do the same thing with it. Each gun is an entity unto itself.

[trapper9260]

Cut down on how much lube you use that way you will cut down on the dents.but I would and do shoot them with dents.Also go with what all had been stated.

[Jimro]

I'd shoot them. It would be prudent to do a load workup ladder of a few rounds in each rifle leading up to the ones pictured just to be sure if you have concerns about safety.

I haven't used Varget and 75 grain bullets, I have used Re-15, IMR4064, and PowerPro 2000MR in my 75 and 80gr match loads for High Power.

But I don't expect any issues in either bolt or rifle length gas system AR

Jimro

[308Loader]

Shoot yes. Reload NO. Will cause crack in shoulder on next loading.

[condor bravo]

re: 308Loader

My question then is, has anyone else experienced cracks during subsequent loadings after ironing out the lube dents by firing? Never heard of or encountered that.

[ripnbst]

I've never encountered issues from loading previously dented brass.