Fully Auto SMG for Car

OneShotOnly! · June 2, 2007, 07:12 AM

I seek opinion from those who have knowledge of the SMG weapons, and perhaps have been invovled in military one way or other.

Since its legal where I live, I want to buy an SMG for protection and to be used in the car.

The most popular choices avialable to me are H&K MP5K with controlled brust option of 3 brust, and UZI by IMI.

Thank you.

armoredman · June 2, 2007, 10:18 AM

Bad idea. Hard enough to control a handgun with one hand, but if you're driving, a heavy, full auto SMG is going to be a bad move. Get a decent high capacity handgun, like a CZ SPO1 with 19 round mag, and move on.
Now, if you are in an RV, and NOT driving, or passenger in a car, what you might like is a select fire weapon, but why? Over penetration is a definte through thin RV walls, and once again, harder to control under full auto. A good sidearm, (shotgun, or compact semi auto rifle in an RV, if you must), will serve you better, and leave some of the far reaching legal effects of full auto use for someone else to worry about.
This is movie thinking, and thinking like a movie will get you like the reviews - cold and hard.

p99guy · June 2, 2007, 11:11 AM

withen the perameters of your question, the MP5K would be the better...the UZi while compact doesnt have the best ergonomics and weighs as much as a M1 Garand. If getting the MP5K...I would opt for the so called MP5K-PDW
variant which has a polymer side folding stock..(greatly increases its utility)

amoredman, I think oneshot only isnt subject to american firearms law(lives elsewhere on planet) If I remember correctly.

Legion2600 · June 2, 2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

and weighs as much as a M1 Garand.

LOL. Man ain't that the truth.

Quote:

If getting the MP5K...I would opt for the so called MP5K-PDW

Agree as well.

OneShotOnly! · June 2, 2007, 02:11 PM

MP5K is well balanced and can esaily be fired with one hand- not that one will only fire it with hand, but just in case. UZI on the other hand is little heavier.

oldbillthundercheif · June 2, 2007, 06:52 PM

The compact MP5 would probably be a little better than an Uzi for the reasons already stated.

I guess the micro-Uzi and its weird relatives may be a better car gun than a standard Uzi, but the cyclic rate is so high that they are tough to use well. The whole magazine is gone in the bilink of an eye... giving you a kind of shotgun effect.

How about a very short, semi-auto, pistol-grip shotgun? I think the technical term is "whippit gun".

Wildalaska · June 2, 2007, 07:09 PM

Subgun for self defense in a car?

Is this a real thread?:barf:

Can you spell Indictment?

WildgimmeabreakAlaska

Jason_G · June 2, 2007, 07:39 PM

I had to stop in to see if this thread was for real

Are you kidding? I don't see anything wrong with owning a SMG for grins and giggles, if you're willing to fork over the dough for one, but do you really need one in your car? Unless you are being hunted by the mafia or something I would say just get a good handgun. If you really feel the urge, you could get a decent semi auto carbine to put in the back or in the trunk. At that, you could get a carbine and a pistol for less than the price of a SMG.

Jason

**Edit: I didn't realize you were in Pakistan, on your location it just says "Next door". I don't know what it is like in Pakistan, and what dangers you encounter being a lawyer there, so my post may not be too useful. I guess you know your situation better than I do.

smenkhare · June 2, 2007, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Subgun for self defense in a car?

Is this a real thread?

Can you spell Indictment?

A guy i worked for used to have a bazooka for home defence

oldbillthundercheif · June 2, 2007, 07:56 PM

He's in Pakistan, Wild, and a lawyer as well.

Perhaps a few Pakistani folks feel the same way about lawyers as many Americans do... hence, the SMG for car duty.

armoredman · June 2, 2007, 08:29 PM

Ah, Paki, that explains it. Have fun, sir.

oldbillthundercheif · June 2, 2007, 10:28 PM

I'm sure you didn't mean it like this but, just to let you know, "Paki" is the British racist-slang word for our middle-eastern friends.

There sure are a lot of crazy ways to say the wrong thing aren't there?

cosmolinelover · June 2, 2007, 11:06 PM

So you're in Pakistan OneShot? Just curious what the gun laws are like there.
How easy or difficult is it to legally purchase an MP5 or UZI, and for how much?
Just curiuos...

armoredman · June 2, 2007, 11:14 PM

Didn't know.

Powderman · June 2, 2007, 11:52 PM

The MP5K would probably be a good choice; but any subgun would probably not be my FIRST go-to gun for the car. I would probably keep the subgun handy, and use a good hi-cap semi handgun as the first response.

Now, the regular MP5 is short and handy enough to swing easily and to control if you need to. Have about 10 mags (if you want) connected in tandem, loaded with the ammo of your choice.

If you can, I probably would fit it with a can, too. Gemtech makes a good can for the MP5, works really well.

OneShotOnly! · June 3, 2007, 05:47 AM

Oldbillthuundershief... thank you.

Armoredman....its ok not many know about the "paki" thing.

Cosmolinelover,
There are two ways to own guns in Pakistan. Legall and illegally. Illgeally you can own anything, even 12.7mm belt fed stripped off guns from Russian tanks.

Now Legally you can also own anything! The is a procedure, and defination of licenses, namely two. Prohibited bore licenses(PB) and Non Prohibited bore (NPB) licenses. For PB you have need to get a direct recomendation from the President or the Prime minister, amd for NPB you just pay the fee, and the license is issued within a month.

MP5 (and other fully auto weapons, among lots of bores) fall under the prohibited bore category. So I will put it on the PB license.

UZI is a whole different story. Since Pakistan and Isreal have import/export bans on each other you cannot legally own an Isreali made weapon. So what people is get the "Isreali Military Industries" rubbed off and replace it with something else or leave blank and when it comes to putting it on license they write foriegn made or US made.

COST: UZI about 6000-12000$ depending on what size and condition. You will hardly find a new one.

MP5 Pakistani made: 2500$ if bought outside the Pakistan Ordinance Facotry. Otherwise if you also have permit to buy it from the facotry (permission to be granted by the president) then it will cost around 500$.

MP5 Iranian: about 1700$

MP5 HK German: about 3000$

MP5K (German) anywhere between 5000-10000 depending on exact model, condition and silencer (need to mention silencered guns are PROHIBTED and no license for that)

Pakistan Ordinance Factory also make MP5K but its not found outside the factory. Its equally as good as the German since they are built for the army, under HK license, plus they are built tougher since the use is in more unplesent train.

Hope this answers your question.

On a sperate note: American and Pakistan people probably have the same feelings about the lawyers, I can say that with experience since I was in the US for 11 years and got my law degree from University of Denver.

ragabash · June 4, 2007, 04:57 AM

Glock 18

OneShotOnly! · June 4, 2007, 09:44 AM

Glock 18 is a good option as well. However, i am leaning towards MP5K with 3 brust option.

Since you mentioned Glock 18, I think Micro Uzi is equally good.
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg17-e.htm

30 cal slut · June 4, 2007, 09:58 AM

hk 33 k. (5.56 mm NATO).

hey, if you're gonna hide something as big as an MP5 in a car, for the same amount of bulk why not go up on the cartridge?

armoredman · June 4, 2007, 10:00 AM

CZ-75 FA, with 25 round mag. Spare mag hangs up front as a forward grip.

Chindo18Z · June 4, 2007, 10:42 AM

OneShotOnly!:

You obviously have a requirement for extremely compact and controllable firepower that is employable from the driver's seat...

Of your two choices (and for the above purpose), the MP5K is significantly superior to either the full sized or micro-UZI variants.
The HK fires from a closed bolt vs the UZI's open-bolt format (providing better accuracy). The MP5K also has superior sights and better ergonomics.

I've a fair amount of military experience with both.

If you anticipate exiting the vehicle to fight, I would echo previous suggestions to procure a folding/collapsing-stocked 5.56mm or 5.45mm assault rifle (M4, AK-74, SIG, etc.)

Good luck...

OneShotOnly! · June 4, 2007, 01:23 PM

Chindo18z
I think I agree with you that HK is superior since I have shot both weapons as well, however, little more of HK MP5 than UZI.

My basic need is an SMG to fired from the car, not outside. However, I am curious which SIG arms were you suggesting in 5.56? Thank you.

LeftHander · June 4, 2007, 10:08 PM

oneshotonly,
The three shot (burst fire) shouldn't be needed. If you can't control the trigger well enough to only fire 2-3 rnds at a time, you need more training. The 3rnd setup was designed for the M16 rifle. It was determined that 3 was the optimum number to give the best chance of hitting a target at battle ranges. Also, they wanted to slow down the use of ammo in a firefight, as the typical soldier would empty the mag with each trigger pull (and not hit anything). However, if you have targets at your car windows, you might want to be able to throw 4-6 rnds/burst. Some of the burstfire trigger sets give a different feel each time you press the trigger, which hampers good control.
Between the two choices, my preference would be the MP-5 in any version. Very controllable, and easy/quick to get competent with. The MP-5K-PDW would be my choice. If you can only find the basic K model, the folding stock is available here. The maker of the stock is Choate Tool Corp. It is marked "HK" when they supply it to the gunmaker, and says "Choate" for the aftermarket. The K is a real handful without a stock. I'm told that to get accurate without a stock, it takes about 6000 rnds of training. The cops that use it call it a "room broom". You can flip the stock open as you pick it up, very quick. The stock locks when it hits the open position. BTW, one version of the stock locks both open and closed. You would not want that for your application as a car gun. You can also put the full stock on the K model, but it is still a little awkward inside a vehicle. You can get a shoulder holster for the K, carries extra mags on the left side, and you keep a short mag for concealment, in the gun.
If you can get the Glock G18, you might want to consider it for a couple reasons. It will fit in a regular holster, so you can comfortably carry it without any undue concealment problems. Once again, you can get a shoulder rig that carries the full size (33rnd) mags on the offside. If it is on you, it will be much quicker into action than a subgun in a rack, or under the seat, etc. If your car is rammed or crashed, you might not be able to get to the subgun, or even find it. The infamous FBI-Miami shootout in '87? illustrates why a gun in a holster is better than loose in the car. (objects in motion, etc..) The latest version of the G18 is compensated, so should be a little better handling in full auto, but might be an ear popper inside a car(you could change the barrel). The Glock is very controllable, with an educated trigger finger. Once you get beyond one or two car lengths, the nod would go to an HK with stock. The neat thing with the G18, is you can have it on you while moving to and from the car, and not look obviously armed. The HK is substantially more bulky under your jacket. Frankly, if you are not limited to one gun, I would carry the G18, and put an HK in a heavier caliber in the car for anti-vehicle/roadblock duty. Always good to have a backup gun!

Frankly, the HK and the Glock are more fun to practice with, then the Uzi's of any size. You'll get good with them quicker, and if you like shooting them, you are more likely to practice, instead of it being a chore.

Will

Chindo18Z · June 4, 2007, 11:00 PM

OneShotOnly!: "I am curious which SIG arms were you suggesting in 5.56?"

SIG 550 Series...

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as25-e.htm

OneShotOnly! · June 5, 2007, 03:29 AM

Left Hander... on Glock 18 issue I agree. However, I prefer 3 brust option since in a fire fight, and tense situation nerves get the better of you no matter how much training you have in a non hostile situation. yes, if I am involved in numerous fire fights, and survive, then I can rate myself to the level you are talking about. That said, you have got me thinking about Glock 18, since high cap mags. are available for, but the problem for me remains availability of the pistols and high price here (~12000$).

Chindo....I have found one Sig 551-2, with controlled 3 brust option, but the asking price here is close to 20K! This is because it is illegally imported and only person has it somewhere near Pakistan/Afghan border who is selling it.

View Poll Results: Fully Auto SMG for Car
MP5K by H&K	17	85.00%
UZI by IMI	3	15.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

June 2, 2007, 07:12 AM	#1
OneShotOnly! Junior member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: Next door Posts: 161	Fully Auto SMG for Car I seek opinion from those who have knowledge of the SMG weapons, and perhaps have been invovled in military one way or other. Since its legal where I live, I want to buy an SMG for protection and to be used in the car. The most popular choices avialable to me are H&K MP5K with controlled brust option of 3 brust, and UZI by IMI. Thank you.

June 2, 2007, 11:11 AM	#3
p99guy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area) Posts: 1,506	withen the perameters of your question, the MP5K would be the better...the UZi while compact doesnt have the best ergonomics and weighs as much as a M1 Garand. If getting the MP5K...I would opt for the so called MP5K-PDW variant which has a polymer side folding stock..(greatly increases its utility) amoredman, I think oneshot only isnt subject to american firearms law(lives elsewhere on planet) If I remember correctly. __________________ Lighten up Francis!.....;Actor Warren Oats, in the movie "Stripes"

June 2, 2007, 07:39 PM	#8
Jason_G Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,902	I had to stop in to see if this thread was for real Are you kidding? I don't see anything wrong with owning a SMG for grins and giggles, if you're willing to fork over the dough for one, but do you really need one in your car? Unless you are being hunted by the mafia or something I would say just get a good handgun. If you really feel the urge, you could get a decent semi auto carbine to put in the back or in the trunk. At that, you could get a carbine and a pistol for less than the price of a SMG. Jason *Edit: I didn't realize you were in Pakistan, on your location it just says "Next door". I don't know what it is like in Pakistan, and what dangers you encounter being a lawyer there, so my post may not be too useful. I guess you know your situation better than I do. Last edited by Jason_G; June 2, 2007 at 10:34 PM.*

June 2, 2007, 10:28 PM	#12
oldbillthundercheif Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2006 Location: New Orleans Posts: 2,450	I'm sure you didn't mean it like this but, just to let you know, "Paki" is the British racist-slang word for our middle-eastern friends. There sure are a lot of crazy ways to say the wrong thing aren't there? Last edited by oldbillthundercheif; June 3, 2007 at 04:15 AM.

June 2, 2007, 10:18 AM	#2
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	Bad idea. Hard enough to control a handgun with one hand, but if you're driving, a heavy, full auto SMG is going to be a bad move. Get a decent high capacity handgun, like a CZ SPO1 with 19 round mag, and move on. Now, if you are in an RV, and NOT driving, or passenger in a car, what you might like is a select fire weapon, but why? Over penetration is a definte through thin RV walls, and once again, harder to control under full auto. A good sidearm, (shotgun, or compact semi auto rifle in an RV, if you must), will serve you better, and leave some of the far reaching legal effects of full auto use for someone else to worry about. This is movie thinking, and thinking like a movie will get you like the reviews - cold and hard.

June 2, 2007, 02:11 PM	#5
OneShotOnly! Junior member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: Next door Posts: 161	MP5K is well balanced and can esaily be fired with one hand- not that one will only fire it with hand, but just in case. UZI on the other hand is little heavier.

June 2, 2007, 06:52 PM	#6
oldbillthundercheif Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2006 Location: New Orleans Posts: 2,450	The compact MP5 would probably be a little better than an Uzi for the reasons already stated. I guess the micro-Uzi and its weird relatives may be a better car gun than a standard Uzi, but the cyclic rate is so high that they are tough to use well. The whole magazine is gone in the bilink of an eye... giving you a kind of shotgun effect. How about a very short, semi-auto, pistol-grip shotgun? I think the technical term is "whippit gun".

June 2, 2007, 07:09 PM	#7
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	Subgun for self defense in a car? Is this a real thread?:barf: Can you spell Indictment? WildgimmeabreakAlaska

June 2, 2007, 07:56 PM	#10
oldbillthundercheif Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2006 Location: New Orleans Posts: 2,450	He's in Pakistan, Wild, and a lawyer as well. Perhaps a few Pakistani folks feel the same way about lawyers as many Americans do... hence, the SMG for car duty.

June 2, 2007, 08:29 PM	#11
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	Ah, Paki, that explains it. Have fun, sir.

June 2, 2007, 11:06 PM	#13
cosmolinelover Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2005 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 254	So you're in Pakistan OneShot? Just curious what the gun laws are like there. How easy or difficult is it to legally purchase an MP5 or UZI, and for how much? Just curiuos...

June 2, 2007, 11:14 PM	#14
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	Didn't know.

June 2, 2007, 11:52 PM	#15
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	The MP5K would probably be a good choice; but any subgun would probably not be my FIRST go-to gun for the car. I would probably keep the subgun handy, and use a good hi-cap semi handgun as the first response. Now, the regular MP5 is short and handy enough to swing easily and to control if you need to. Have about 10 mags (if you want) connected in tandem, loaded with the ammo of your choice. If you can, I probably would fit it with a can, too. Gemtech makes a good can for the MP5, works really well. __________________ Hiding in plain sight...

June 3, 2007, 05:47 AM	#16
OneShotOnly! Junior member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: Next door Posts: 161	Oldbillthuundershief... thank you. Armoredman....its ok not many know about the "paki" thing. Cosmolinelover, There are two ways to own guns in Pakistan. Legall and illegally. Illgeally you can own anything, even 12.7mm belt fed stripped off guns from Russian tanks. Now Legally you can also own anything! The is a procedure, and defination of licenses, namely two. Prohibited bore licenses(PB) and Non Prohibited bore (NPB) licenses. For PB you have need to get a direct recomendation from the President or the Prime minister, amd for NPB you just pay the fee, and the license is issued within a month. MP5 (and other fully auto weapons, among lots of bores) fall under the prohibited bore category. So I will put it on the PB license. UZI is a whole different story. Since Pakistan and Isreal have import/export bans on each other you cannot legally own an Isreali made weapon. So what people is get the "Isreali Military Industries" rubbed off and replace it with something else or leave blank and when it comes to putting it on license they write foriegn made or US made. COST: UZI about 6000-12000$ depending on what size and condition. You will hardly find a new one. MP5 Pakistani made: 2500$ if bought outside the Pakistan Ordinance Facotry. Otherwise if you also have permit to buy it from the facotry (permission to be granted by the president) then it will cost around 500$. MP5 Iranian: about 1700$ MP5 HK German: about 3000$ MP5K (German) anywhere between 5000-10000 depending on exact model, condition and silencer (need to mention silencered guns are PROHIBTED and no license for that) Pakistan Ordinance Factory also make MP5K but its not found outside the factory. Its equally as good as the German since they are built for the army, under HK license, plus they are built tougher since the use is in more unplesent train. Hope this answers your question. On a sperate note: American and Pakistan people probably have the same feelings about the lawyers, I can say that with experience since I was in the US for 11 years and got my law degree from University of Denver.

June 4, 2007, 04:57 AM	#17
ragabash Junior member Join Date: December 23, 2006 Posts: 47	Glock 18

June 4, 2007, 09:44 AM	#18
OneShotOnly! Junior member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: Next door Posts: 161	Glock 18 is a good option as well. However, i am leaning towards MP5K with 3 brust option. Since you mentioned Glock 18, I think Micro Uzi is equally good. http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg17-e.htm

June 4, 2007, 09:58 AM	#19
30 cal slut Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Posts: 34	hk 33 k. (5.56 mm NATO). hey, if you're gonna hide something as big as an MP5 in a car, for the same amount of bulk why not go up on the cartridge?

June 4, 2007, 10:00 AM	#20
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	CZ-75 FA, with 25 round mag. Spare mag hangs up front as a forward grip.

June 4, 2007, 10:42 AM	#21
Chindo18Z Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 1999 Posts: 498	OneShotOnly!: You obviously have a requirement for extremely compact and controllable firepower that is employable from the driver's seat... Of your two choices (and for the above purpose), the MP5K is significantly superior to either the full sized or micro-UZI variants. The HK fires from a closed bolt vs the UZI's open-bolt format (providing better accuracy). The MP5K also has superior sights and better ergonomics. I've a fair amount of military experience with both. If you anticipate exiting the vehicle to fight, I would echo previous suggestions to procure a folding/collapsing-stocked 5.56mm or 5.45mm assault rifle (M4, AK-74, SIG, etc.) Good luck... __________________ Figure The Odds...

June 4, 2007, 01:23 PM	#22
OneShotOnly! Junior member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: Next door Posts: 161	Chindo18z I think I agree with you that HK is superior since I have shot both weapons as well, however, little more of HK MP5 than UZI. My basic need is an SMG to fired from the car, not outside. However, I am curious which SIG arms were you suggesting in 5.56? Thank you.

June 4, 2007, 10:08 PM	#23
LeftHander Junior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 6	oneshotonly, The three shot (burst fire) shouldn't be needed. If you can't control the trigger well enough to only fire 2-3 rnds at a time, you need more training. The 3rnd setup was designed for the M16 rifle. It was determined that 3 was the optimum number to give the best chance of hitting a target at battle ranges. Also, they wanted to slow down the use of ammo in a firefight, as the typical soldier would empty the mag with each trigger pull (and not hit anything). However, if you have targets at your car windows, you might want to be able to throw 4-6 rnds/burst. Some of the burstfire trigger sets give a different feel each time you press the trigger, which hampers good control. Between the two choices, my preference would be the MP-5 in any version. Very controllable, and easy/quick to get competent with. The MP-5K-PDW would be my choice. If you can only find the basic K model, the folding stock is available here. The maker of the stock is Choate Tool Corp. It is marked "HK" when they supply it to the gunmaker, and says "Choate" for the aftermarket. The K is a real handful without a stock. I'm told that to get accurate without a stock, it takes about 6000 rnds of training. The cops that use it call it a "room broom". You can flip the stock open as you pick it up, very quick. The stock locks when it hits the open position. BTW, one version of the stock locks both open and closed. You would not want that for your application as a car gun. You can also put the full stock on the K model, but it is still a little awkward inside a vehicle. You can get a shoulder holster for the K, carries extra mags on the left side, and you keep a short mag for concealment, in the gun. If you can get the Glock G18, you might want to consider it for a couple reasons. It will fit in a regular holster, so you can comfortably carry it without any undue concealment problems. Once again, you can get a shoulder rig that carries the full size (33rnd) mags on the offside. If it is on you, it will be much quicker into action than a subgun in a rack, or under the seat, etc. If your car is rammed or crashed, you might not be able to get to the subgun, or even find it. The infamous FBI-Miami shootout in '87? illustrates why a gun in a holster is better than loose in the car. (objects in motion, etc..) The latest version of the G18 is compensated, so should be a little better handling in full auto, but might be an ear popper inside a car(you could change the barrel). The Glock is very controllable, with an educated trigger finger. Once you get beyond one or two car lengths, the nod would go to an HK with stock. The neat thing with the G18, is you can have it on you while moving to and from the car, and not look obviously armed. The HK is substantially more bulky under your jacket. Frankly, if you are not limited to one gun, I would carry the G18, and put an HK in a heavier caliber in the car for anti-vehicle/roadblock duty. Always good to have a backup gun! Frankly, the HK and the Glock are more fun to practice with, then the Uzi's of any size. You'll get good with them quicker, and if you like shooting them, you are more likely to practice, instead of it being a chore. Will

June 4, 2007, 11:00 PM	#24
Chindo18Z Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 1999 Posts: 498	OneShotOnly!: "I am curious which SIG arms were you suggesting in 5.56?" SIG 550 Series... http://world.guns.ru/assault/as25-e.htm __________________ Figure The Odds...

June 5, 2007, 03:29 AM	#25
OneShotOnly! Junior member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: Next door Posts: 161	Left Hander... on Glock 18 issue I agree. However, I prefer 3 brust option since in a fire fight, and tense situation nerves get the better of you no matter how much training you have in a non hostile situation. yes, if I am involved in numerous fire fights, and survive, then I can rate myself to the level you are talking about. That said, you have got me thinking about Glock 18, since high cap mags. are available for, but the problem for me remains availability of the pistols and high price here (~12000$). Chindo....I have found one Sig 551-2, with controlled 3 brust option, but the asking price here is close to 20K! This is because it is illegally imported and only person has it somewhere near Pakistan/Afghan border who is selling it.