.45 ACP and semi-wadcutters - Page 3

snuffy · October 28, 2011, 11:06 AM

Quote:

I tried to load two inert
rounds one after another and found out that the rim of the loaded round in the chamber is hitting the bullet edge of the next round. It does not matter
how deep you seat the bullet.

Then, your problem is with the mag lips, not the bullet. I suspect that's darth's problem as well. Carefully bend the lips down a bit to allow the fired case to exit the chamber without hitting the next round in the mag. Anything that slows the slide will cause failures to feed, it only has so much energy stored in the recoil spring.

Jim Watson · October 28, 2011, 11:20 AM

Quote:

I too own an fnp-45 and tried to use HG68 swc..unless you own that gun
it is hard for you to tell why it does not feed properly. I tried to load two inert
rounds one after another and found out that the rim of the loaded round in the chamber is hitting the bullet edge of the next round. It does not matter
how deep you seat the bullet.

I dunno, Snuffy.

I had that very same problem with a Sig Sauer P220 .45 and have seen it described and illustrated for an XD .45.
I do not think it has anything to do with the magazine lips. What I see happening is that these European guns are just barely large enough for .45 instead of their native 9mm. What happens is that when the barrel links or cams down to unlock, the rim of the empty drops below the breechface and smacks the shoulder of the top SWC in the magazine during extraction. I would expect failures to feed if you curled the magazine lips enough to take the bullet of the top round out of the way.
I guess he could sacrifice a magazine to the experiment.

Me?
I just quit asking a non-1911 to handle SWCs. RN, TC, and most hollowpoints feed fine in my P220. Apparently the empty rim just glides or glances off the ogive with little resistance.

Cruz5350 · October 28, 2011, 04:33 PM

Welcome to my world of hell. I've had a damn hard time loading for my FNH-45
This gun is really best at shooting ball ammo from what I've seen.

**Unclenick** · October 28, 2011, 04:51 PM

Jim's description does make it sound like the gun geometry is the issue. What's needed is a way to tame the speed bump of the next cartridge up to bat.

I'm thinking one solution might be to go retro. There was a time when taper crimps were not standard and most seating dies had roll crimp contours, even for auto pistol cartridges. A fellow who's schedule allows him to do a lot of testing reminded me recently that a lot of target shooters of the 40's, 50's, and 60's were roll crimping their .45's. The trick is for the cartridge to headspace on the extractor hook or the bullet before the case mouth gets close enough to the end of the chamber to wind up in the throat, which could raise pressure dramatically. I like headspacing on lead bullets with or without a roll crimp, but your gun has to be able to feed a cartridge that long.

The idea with the roll crimp was to intentionally bit into the bullet to raise start pressure, which helps with powder ignition consistency, especially with small, low pressure charges. These were, I was reminded, the most accurate loads of their day. In the case of the Euro gun designs, the roll crimp would provide a rounded profile for the case in the chamber to run into upon extraction, and that should soften the speed bump effect.

Since taper crimping auto pistol rounds is now standard, I don't know which dies do or don't have a roll crimp contour built in without looking them all up. A seating die made for the .45 Auto Rim should have a roll crimp contour (though the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die for both ACP and Auto Rim does not). The Redding Profile Crimp die is available for Auto Rim and that would work with the .45 Auto case and might be a good choice as it will also hold the overall outside dimensions to within feed limits.

The second thought that comes to mind will not be greeted with enthusiasm by those not already set up to do it, but that is to moly coat the plated bullets. This will further encourage sliding contact with the extracting case, as a touch of the moly will rub off onto the extracting case and further help it over the speed bump. It should also help the round feed into the chamber.

The third thought is to just apply Lee Liquid Alox lube to the plated bullets to add lubrication before seating them. If you dilute it with maybe 10-20% mineral spirits the coat is extra thin. When it's dried to the tacky stage you can dust it with motor mica powder and roll that around a little then let it finish drying. I suppose you could dust with graphite or moly as alternatives, but they'll be messier.

DarthNul · October 28, 2011, 09:08 PM

I need to add a little info that might disrupt a theory or two...

I don't know where my FNH FNP-45 was designed but my guess is that it was done on a computer and that probably matters more than whether said computer was or wasn't in Europe. The gun was definitely made in the USA in any case. It is not a small gun, or a 9mm frame with a bigger barrel tacked on. It's physically larger than most .45 autoloaders, and definitely a "full size" pistol. It's the biggest of my "full size" autoloaders.

I was liking the idea that the ejecting case might be interfering with the next round on its way in, but the odds of the first round from a mag failing to chamber are just as bad as they are for subsequent rounds, assuming I let the slide fly forward freely on the first round.

I'm leaning toward blaming a really tight chamber. I'm going to do my best to break it in some more. I'll try again then. If SWCs still don't work, I may just have to pick up a 1911

**Unclenick** · October 29, 2011, 10:32 AM

The 1911 is what Gunsite taught me to like. If you want a double column magazine, the Para-Ordance frame can be built up to do just fine and still be basically a 1911.

If even your first round won't chamber, then its going to be either chamber geometry, feed ramp/chamber mouth ramp extension, weak recoil springs, or, most likely, the magazine lip configuration/design. Since I've never worked on your model, I'd call factory service and ask what they think is going on?

Also, some brass is thicker than others. The thinnest is Remington (R-P headstamp). Try a few of those for variety and see if it make a difference. Another thought is simply to mark the bullets with some dry-erase marker so you can visually see where they are rubbing on the way into the chamber. There again, the lubrication approach may help. Polishing the chamber may help. .45 ACP fires at pressure too low for cases to stick to the chamber anyway, so don't worry about that affecting function.

Is a stronger recoil spring available for the gun? If so, and assuming you get plenty of recoil for operation, that brute force approach may provide a cure.

Jim Watson · October 30, 2011, 04:04 PM

Quote:

I was liking the idea that the ejecting case might be interfering with the next round on its way in, but the odds of the first round from a mag failing to chamber are just as bad as they are for subsequent rounds, assuming I let the slide fly forward freely on the first round.

I'm leaning toward blaming a really tight chamber. I'm going to do my best to break it in some more. I'll try again then. If SWCs still don't work, I may just have to pick up a 1911

Well, if the first round won't chamber, then it clearly is not interference by the extracted empty.
If the chamber is undersize (as many are) then shooting is not likely to "break it in" you are not going to wear away much excess steel with lead and brass. My current theory is incompatible magazine and ramp geometry.

When I figured out that my P220 DID have empty vs SWC shoulder interference, I sold the gun. But I liked the type well enough that I bought another and give it only roundnose and ogival hollowpoint, which work well.

DarthNul · October 31, 2011, 11:23 PM

Quote:

There again, the lubrication approach may help. Polishing the chamber may help.

I think this might be worth a shot. Should I lube the cartridges, or the ramp & chamber, or all of the above? Any recommendation for lubricants? I think I'd avoid petroleum based lube on the cartridges unless I put it on just before firing.

I don't know if a stronger recoil spring is available. It uses one of those captive spring/guide rod assemblies, which would probably increase the cost... I'm pretty sure that the amount of "forward assist" that I've been providing to finish chambering the round is more than a stronger spring could achieve.

I've also seen other signs that the recoil spring is already on the heavy side: cases from starting loads barely eject, mid-level loads throw cases only a few inches above the gun. Hot loads throw cases in a more "normal" distance range, but not as far as any of my other pistols, especially the Sigs.

The FNP-45 is in my opinion, the best of the plastic pistols that I've owned, but the more I shoot, the stronger my preference for the non-plastic varieties grow. They all have their place in the collection though.

Cruz5350 · November 1, 2011, 08:55 AM

The gun was designed for ball type ammo pretty much nothing else. There is some HP's that are similar in design to ball ammo that work fine. I've used XTP's with success. The feed ramp seems to be just to steep for anything else and the gun does not like weak loads period.

Cruz5350 · November 1, 2011, 08:57 AM

My FNP-45 is the USG model and it has a semi polished feed ramp like you said it has a strong recoil spring and def loves the heavier loads. I've had to go above some book max values and watched the brass for signs of over pressure to get it working correctly. It shoots great now and still within reason. I really highly doubt this thing will shoot >230gr rounds consistently. It just doesn't seem designed for it.

Cruz5350 · November 1, 2011, 08:59 AM

http://fnforum.net/reloading-for-a-n...45-t22319.html

Check this for some more help.

Naby · November 21, 2011, 02:08 PM

I also think it is the gun and not how you are loading your rounds. I have an FNP-45 Tactical that loves ball ammo but will not feed flat nosed FMJ rounds. I haven't tried hollow points so I can't speak to how it likes those. Does it get any better with use? I'm a little disappointed with it.

Here is a blog where a guy talks about getting rid of his and one reason is because it will not feed semi wadcutters.

http://mtgee.blogspot.com/2011/08/fa...-tactical.html

TheTinMan · November 22, 2011, 06:06 PM

Quote:

The Rainer SWC is not a faithful copy of the old H&G #68 or the current bulk cast versions. I worked hard with it several years ago and never could get OAL and crimp to where it would run reliably in guns specifically set up for and reliable with cast SWCs.

+1 on that. I just got some 200gr LSWC from Penn and compared them with the Rainiers that I never could get to work 100% reliably in a Kimber CDP Pro II. The length, angle and diameter of the cone is very different, with the Penn being both longer and thicker. Penn recommends a COAL of 1.250" IIRC, and I believe that theirs is a replica of the H&G #68.

Also, when you properly taper crimp the Rainier plated bullet, you are going to see a mark on the bullet if you pull it.

Shotgun693 · November 22, 2011, 06:28 PM

If your gun will feed any ammo except SWC then it's the ammo.
You might try the 200 gr Lead Round Nose Flat Point like a lot of Cowboy Action Shooters use. It cuts a pretty good hole and works in every .45 auto I've seen it used in. Really the point is the same as a SWC it's the shoulder that's the big difference.

DarthNul · November 22, 2011, 08:46 PM

Quote:

If your gun will feed any ammo except SWC then it's the ammo

That's pretty much the case. It shoots Nosler JHP, Hornady XTP, Xtreme plated round shouldered flat point, Round nose, and various other hollow points without problems, as long as there's enough powder behind them.

It doesn't like powder puff loads much. It will still feed & cycle weak loads but it tends to throw those cases straight back at my face.

October 28, 2011, 04:51 PM	#54
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,057	Jim's description does make it sound like the gun geometry is the issue. What's needed is a way to tame the speed bump of the next cartridge up to bat. I'm thinking one solution might be to go retro. There was a time when taper crimps were not standard and most seating dies had roll crimp contours, even for auto pistol cartridges. A fellow who's schedule allows him to do a lot of testing reminded me recently that a lot of target shooters of the 40's, 50's, and 60's were roll crimping their .45's. The trick is for the cartridge to headspace on the extractor hook or the bullet before the case mouth gets close enough to the end of the chamber to wind up in the throat, which could raise pressure dramatically. I like headspacing on lead bullets with or without a roll crimp, but your gun has to be able to feed a cartridge that long. The idea with the roll crimp was to intentionally bit into the bullet to raise start pressure, which helps with powder ignition consistency, especially with small, low pressure charges. These were, I was reminded, the most accurate loads of their day. In the case of the Euro gun designs, the roll crimp would provide a rounded profile for the case in the chamber to run into upon extraction, and that should soften the speed bump effect. Since taper crimping auto pistol rounds is now standard, I don't know which dies do or don't have a roll crimp contour built in without looking them all up. A seating die made for the .45 Auto Rim should have a roll crimp contour (though the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die for both ACP and Auto Rim does not). The Redding Profile Crimp die is available for Auto Rim and that would work with the .45 Auto case and might be a good choice as it will also hold the overall outside dimensions to within feed limits. The second thought that comes to mind will not be greeted with enthusiasm by those not already set up to do it, but that is to moly coat the plated bullets. This will further encourage sliding contact with the extracting case, as a touch of the moly will rub off onto the extracting case and further help it over the speed bump. It should also help the round feed into the chamber. The third thought is to just apply Lee Liquid Alox lube to the plated bullets to add lubrication before seating them. If you dilute it with maybe 10-20% mineral spirits the coat is extra thin. When it's dried to the tacky stage you can dust it with motor mica powder and roll that around a little then let it finish drying. I suppose you could dust with graphite or moly as alternatives, but they'll be messier. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 28, 2011, 09:08 PM	#55
DarthNul Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 288	I need to add a little info that might disrupt a theory or two... I don't know where my FNH FNP-45 was designed but my guess is that it was done on a computer and that probably matters more than whether said computer was or wasn't in Europe. The gun was definitely made in the USA in any case. It is not a small gun, or a 9mm frame with a bigger barrel tacked on. It's physically larger than most .45 autoloaders, and definitely a "full size" pistol. It's the biggest of my "full size" autoloaders. I was liking the idea that the ejecting case might be interfering with the next round on its way in, but the odds of the first round from a mag failing to chamber are just as bad as they are for subsequent rounds, assuming I let the slide fly forward freely on the first round. I'm leaning toward blaming a really tight chamber. I'm going to do my best to break it in some more. I'll try again then. If SWCs still don't work, I may just have to pick up a 1911 __________________ The most feared gun control law proposal: Require buyers to register all gun purchases with their wives

October 29, 2011, 10:32 AM	#56
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,057	The 1911 is what Gunsite taught me to like. If you want a double column magazine, the Para-Ordance frame can be built up to do just fine and still be basically a 1911. If even your first round won't chamber, then its going to be either chamber geometry, feed ramp/chamber mouth ramp extension, weak recoil springs, or, most likely, the magazine lip configuration/design. Since I've never worked on your model, I'd call factory service and ask what they think is going on? Also, some brass is thicker than others. The thinnest is Remington (R-P headstamp). Try a few of those for variety and see if it make a difference. Another thought is simply to mark the bullets with some dry-erase marker so you can visually see where they are rubbing on the way into the chamber. There again, the lubrication approach may help. Polishing the chamber may help. .45 ACP fires at pressure too low for cases to stick to the chamber anyway, so don't worry about that affecting function. Is a stronger recoil spring available for the gun? If so, and assuming you get plenty of recoil for operation, that brute force approach may provide a cure. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

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October 28, 2011, 04:33 PM	#53
Cruz5350 Member Join Date: October 28, 2010 Posts: 63	Welcome to my world of hell. I've had a damn hard time loading for my FNH-45 This gun is really best at shooting ball ammo from what I've seen.

November 1, 2011, 08:55 AM	#59
Cruz5350 Member Join Date: October 28, 2010 Posts: 63	The gun was designed for ball type ammo pretty much nothing else. There is some HP's that are similar in design to ball ammo that work fine. I've used XTP's with success. The feed ramp seems to be just to steep for anything else and the gun does not like weak loads period.

November 1, 2011, 08:57 AM	#60
Cruz5350 Member Join Date: October 28, 2010 Posts: 63	My FNP-45 is the USG model and it has a semi polished feed ramp like you said it has a strong recoil spring and def loves the heavier loads. I've had to go above some book max values and watched the brass for signs of over pressure to get it working correctly. It shoots great now and still within reason. I really highly doubt this thing will shoot >230gr rounds consistently. It just doesn't seem designed for it.

November 1, 2011, 08:59 AM	#61
Cruz5350 Member Join Date: October 28, 2010 Posts: 63	http://fnforum.net/reloading-for-a-n...45-t22319.html Check this for some more help.

November 21, 2011, 02:08 PM	#62
Naby Member Join Date: January 26, 2011 Location: Florida Posts: 50	I also think it is the gun and not how you are loading your rounds. I have an FNP-45 Tactical that loves ball ammo but will not feed flat nosed FMJ rounds. I haven't tried hollow points so I can't speak to how it likes those. Does it get any better with use? I'm a little disappointed with it. Here is a blog where a guy talks about getting rid of his and one reason is because it will not feed semi wadcutters. http://mtgee.blogspot.com/2011/08/fa...-tactical.html

November 22, 2011, 06:28 PM	#64
Shotgun693 Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2011 Location: Poteet, Texas Posts: 959	If your gun will feed any ammo except SWC then it's the ammo. You might try the 200 gr Lead Round Nose Flat Point like a lot of Cowboy Action Shooters use. It cuts a pretty good hole and works in every .45 auto I've seen it used in. Really the point is the same as a SWC it's the shoulder that's the big difference.