KRISS Super-V .45 SMG

[oldbillthundercheif]

Holy hell, this thing looks like a monster! An adjustable cyclic-rate .45 SMG with little or no muzzle-rise. It looks like a VCR with a pistol-grip and a rail on top, but it's still in development. Maybe they will engineer the ugly out of it.

It looks like somebody took a look at the new Kalashnikov designs and decided that recoil or gas operated counterweights were worth developing... finally. I've been following the technology for a while but it seemed like nobody was interested.

I'm glad somebody finally built something like this. It looks like the wave of the future as far as I'm concerned.

So what do y'all think? Does this kind of system have a future or is it just a flash in the pan?

[Trapp]

They've been trying to build it for years (well, 2 at least). I really like the idea and would love to see it incorporated in more firearms design.

Maybe in about 10 years??

[Crosshair]

It's a pistol with a stock that places the bore axis very low. Nothing magical about it. It is a delayed blowback operation system so I wonder if it works with a bosterless suppressor. I'm not really impressed.

[oldbillthundercheif]

I dunno...

It's got a big hunk of metal that they are calling the "slider assembly" that shifts downward with the mechanism. It's connected to the action to provide resistance for the delayed-blowback system. Instead of rollers or whatnot there is a linkage to the counterweight.

I don't have any pistols that use this particular system.

[Crosshair]

Well yes, it's operating system is not that of a pistol, but it is still basically a pistol length barrel in a submachine gun sized package. It's almost as bad as the "Glock on a stick" "corner gun" that some company makes.

[dtarbox]

They had a story on it on the show "Future Weapons". I thought it was a pretty cool concept

DT

[Vortexyz]

I like it...seems like a good concept with so many companies turning out PDWs these days (i.e. FN P90, HK MP7). Seems like a good idea. Being able to shoot a .45 full auto with little muzzle rise sounds awesome.

And oldbill, you're right it does look pretty fugly

[douglasschuckert]

But it's AWESOME!!!

The issues for this gun will be 2 fold. 1 finding a manufacturer to produce it in masse' and 2. Convincing LEO's to field it. I'm maybe **INAPPROPRIATE LANGUAGE REMOVED**, but most of the hot-selling PDW type weapons of late have been in the rifle caliber range(s). Since the black rifle has been extensively modified over the years to become more of a CQB type of tool vise a field-grade fielding, it would surprise me greatly if this SMG goes anywhere at all.

There have been so many weapons devised to fill an almost non-existent niche, like the TMP, MP7, UMP, ect.. that I fear this SMG will meld into the like similar. Until the AR platform takes a popularity dive, these above SMG's will not see much fielding at all.

Its a GREAT concept, and from what I've read and been told about it from first hander(s), the KRISS is ONE HELL of an SMG! But lets be realistic here. What market is it geared for that isn't already dominated by an AR variant?

The police cruiser? SWAT/ERT/HRT? Who do they think will field this the most? The simi-auto version is soon to be released as well... I know from a collector/shooter's standpoint I would LOVE to own one! Hell the only other contender in this caliber is the UMP, and that thing's muzzle rises like all dickens unless you know what you're doing...

I really hope that when this hits the market, people will see what this can do for the small-arms community and I hope special teams move away from the .223 round in CQB type of scenarios and go back to the less penetrative pistol caliber rounds. The happy medium between the two being the .45. (9mm is a proven, time and time again, combat ineffective round, and the .223 is overkill for CQB... It goes through way to many walls to be end all choice. The .45 has been one of the best all round choices for years, but for some strange reason, its been a logistical nightmare to produce a SMG - H&K tried it in both their P7 and MP lines, no joy either place, Colt tried it with the AR platform, still no joy...).

This weapon is very ugly, but from what is being said about it, it holds some serious promise.... I just hope the world adopts it. After all the AR platform is getting way to much press and being utilized for missions that the .223/556 round is not necessarily a good choice for. In the end.. we shall see. Its truly a great concept, I just hope the timing of it's release is right.

[Thumper]

Crosshair said

It's a pistol with a stock that places the bore axis very low. Nothing magical about it.

Hardly.

They had one at SHOT. Easily one of the cooler things on the horizon in the gun world. Recoil forces are moved from the horizontal axis to the vertical (downward) by an articulated mass in the receiver. What this means for the shooter is zero muzzle rise in full auto fire.

[SDC]

Agreed, a very interesting design (almost as odd as the French PM9), but I have to wonder why they'd produce it in 45; large-capacity mags in 9mm are MUCH more available, you'd have even less trouble controlling it in 9mm, and with a full-auto with that rate of fire, you'd have multiple hits on target anyway.

[douglasschuckert]

This particular design negates the recoil factor, and anyone that has ever **INAPPROPRIATE LANGUAGE REMOVED** knows that the .45 round is so far superior to the 9mm round its not even worth comparing. The 9mm round is extremely combat ineffective. Its absolutely horrible for combat purposes. I know first hand.

The only reason the MP5 is as popular as it is, is the play its received, the marketing done by H&K, and the fact that it was one of the very first, closed-bolt, smgs available that was not just highly accurate, but infinitely reliable. Its not until fairly recently that it was even popular at all. Seal Team 6 (when it was formed) was the first military unit (or police for that matter, in the US) that used the MP5 on a formidable level. On paper the 9mm has almost the same ballistic performance of the .45, and its also more cost effective to produce. One of the main reasons the 9mm round is so popular is because of the DoD's migration from the 45. Before that I was just another pistol caliber round... nothing special.

This SMG, could very well be the answer that Special Operators all over the globe have been seeking for a very long time. The only decent SMG in .45 out there is the UMP, and that particular gun does rise on you and does produce a substantial amount of recoil. Its actually easier to shoot a 10" M4 than the UMP. The KRISS has MASSIVE potential! I wish I had one when I was 'working' in the military.

I can tell you with all certainty, and take it for what’s its worth, that not a lot of of our eliet use the MP5 anymore for more than an executive protection role or for hostage rescue in VERY tight spaces. List oil rigs, ships, aircraft ect. Even then the 10" M4 is being employed more and more in those rolls as well.

Don’t get me wrong, the MP5 is one fantastic SMG. Its the ABSOLUTE BEST 9mm smg out there... bar none... its just 9mm. I've seen people shot several times with it and still keep on coming. I've never seen someone able to withstand more than two from a 230gr .45.... Just the force of impact alone, puts the ‘T’s’ on their ass.

[SDC]

"Just the force of impact alone, puts the ‘T’s’ on their ass."

Um, "knock-down power" is a MYTH, and the impact of a bullet on the target has to be less than the impact of the recoil on the shooter (you remember, that whole "equal and opposite reaction" thing of Newton's?) Since an SMG with the rate of fire that this thing has is going to be putting a MINIMUM of three rounds on target (and more likely 5), I still have to wonder why they'd bother building this thing in an obsolete round that's more expensive, and heavier to use and carry. I don't care WHAT you're jacked up on, no-one is just going to "shrug off" a chest full of 9mm.

[MDman]

to me its just a very big complicated and expensive handgun.

[oldbillthundercheif]

When you are stuck with FMJ, as I think a sizable portion of the people this firearm is maketed to are, .45 is just plain better than 9mm.

If you are able to put a volume of .45 projectiles downrange with the same or better controllability than you would have with a 9mm subgun, that sounds pretty good to me.

[wardog]

I love the MP5. It's really fun to shoot.

I always thought the 10mm MP5 seemed like a good idea. Quite a bit of extra punch over the 9. Yes, it would be really expensive to shoot, but I would think ammo expense issues could be overcome if a law enforcement agency needed the extra power.

Anyway, with the all the MP5 fans out there, I've always wondered why the HK 53 never caught on with LEO/Military. I've never shot one, (have shot a 51 though ) so maybe there's good reason.

[Thumper]

MDMan said:

to me its just a very big complicated and expensive handgun.

You do understand the practical accuracy benefits of a third and fouth point of contact (stock), right?

Also, with which handgun are you able to put five .45 ACP rounds in a palm sized group in under a second?

[douglasschuckert]

I'm not going to sit and argue with someone over the ballistic qualities of rounds. This will be my last on this topic... Especially when the basic argument is a silly one. But the sheer fact of a bullets impact cant be greater than the recoil? WOW... now that took some real thinking... A typical .45 ACP (230gr) hits its target at about 850fps @ 350ft lbs of force. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that there is NO WAY humanly possible, unless of course you're Superman, that the human arm can repeatedly handle a force equal to or greater than 350 ft. lbs of pressure.... (the law of input vs output... lame.... the law of equal and opposite... lammer. You have to remember that a round going off is a 'controlled or channeled explosion. Its the chamber around the round's casing that channels all the explosive force forward (98% of it anyway). If the front of that rube was solidly blocked, then yea.. it would equal out. - your 'for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction thing.... wrong physical law to apply to the FOI - force of impact). without that chamber closely wrapped around that round's casing, you'd hardly get much impact or velocity out of ANY bullet. Toss one in a camp fire, step about 50 feet away, and wait. @ 50 to 75ft your damn near completely safe (but don't forget the Murphy factor, or are you going to argue that Murphy's law is a myth too? there is that 'lucky one').

A 75gr, HP, .223 round (a very, very heavy bullet for the .223), will hit the target at 1058 pounds of pressure @ 100 yards (1259 @ muzzle), and 489lbs @ 500 yards. (dont believe me, see http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ballis...remington.html)

Don't even try to argue the fact that your shoulder can take 1259lbs ONE TIME, much less 800 to 1,200 times per min.

If you want to try and make an ass out of someone publicly, at least look into the facts, and know what you're talking about before you hit the 'Submit Reply' button.

Now before you even think of responding to this, do yourself a VERY big favor, and go to

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ballis...html&x=14&y=12

and compare the difference between the 9x19 Luger (the round the MP5 shoots), and the .45 ACP.

And yes... I have used both of the rounds in real life, not some fantasy people have when they have their 'pistol' concealed under their jacket or while they're reading solder of fortune magazine on the ****tier. For someone that has been in combat, knock down power is not a myth at all.... its everything. Why do you think people that hunt dangerous game, use really big friggin bullets with a LOT of power behind them... if it was a myth, why dont they use rimfire rounds? Honestly... knock down power is WAY over used terminology, but in essence, its the reason we carry HP's instead of FMJ's in our weapons. Its why elephant hunters use a stinking cannon. Its why special operations and general military units prefer the AK-47 (7.62x39 or 30cal) to the M-16, and .45 to the 9mm.

The 9mm and the .45 hit on target with nearly identical forces.... but thats just half of the equation. You also have to consider bullet weight. The weight (or mass) of an object exponentially effects any given objects impact... Slam a Ford Ranger into a brick wall @ 100mph, measure the impact force, then do the same with a F250 @ 55 and compare... which one do you think will take out more of the wall?

And nope... a hollow point from a 9mm is not equal to a hollow point of a .45 acp... the military doesn't usually use hollow points, but if they did, the 9mm would be close to a 187gr 45 FMJ. You cannot, under no circumstances, compare the two rounds together. The .45 is quite simply in a league of its own. (research the 1997 FBI pistol trials for when they were outfitting their HRT teams with new stuff... (sounds far fetched but true) the 230gr .45ACP HydroShock was the ONLY round from .22LR to 50AE that had a 100% first shot stop rate)... and why has every SOCOM unit in the US, Germany, and UK, almost exclusively dumped the 9mm pistols for the old tried and true 1911? Why is almost every major police player in the US using the 1911 - FBI and most other .govies, the LA PD SWAT, Marine MEU's (Force Recon), US Army SF, Navy SEALS, AirForce PJ/CC's.. the list goes on and on...? The general front line troop still uses the Beretta 92FS, but that is soon going to change. The government, not just DoD (before Iraq) had an open requirement and bid process going on what manufacturer could make the best.... what? .45....

The KRISS would be a FAR SUPERIOR SMG TO THE MP5 (as long as it was as reliable). Plain and simple. The recoil difference between the 9mm and the .45 is also not that much different. A trained shooter with 9mm can easily handle, with the same effectiveness, a .45. I've been shooting both rounds in competitions of various sorts all my life, I teach point and instinct shooting, I routinely put all 7 .45 rounds in the 10 ring at 22+ feet in less than 4.5s and have used both calibers (and many others) in the real world, punching holes in things that actually shoot back. I even have a MAC 10 SMG chambered in .45 and 9mm, that I own, and the recoil difference between the two, although substantially noticeable, is still negligible for accurately placing the same number of rounds into the same target, at damn near the same rate of fire. Anyone who says otherwise... needs to spend more time at the range.... They're not as good as they think they are. I can do just as much with my 1911 as I can with my P229 or P7M8 (and thats the lowest recoil 9mm handgun you can fire). Matter of fact all I carry now, and all I carried when I was active military is a custom (military read Kimber, civilian read Ed Brown & s70 Colt) 1911 loaded with 230gr Federal HydroShock (civilian) or Extreme Shock (frangible ammo that delivers over 500lbs of force on target with subsonic speed).

You are right.. a handfull of 9mm rounds in someones chest is effective. Thats why the SEALS invented the burst for the MP5, but the fact that they even needed the burts capability, should say a lot to the crappiness of the 9mm round. Especially when no Special Operations Specialist uses their weapon in full auto except for exfil and cover fire. The 9mm is the ONLY weapon that in 6 years, I trained with for typical assaults, on burst. Our 10" M4's.... single shot only unless we were buggin out. our SAW's? Well those were full auto only (most of them anyway), but we still used very short trigger pulls.

enough said.

[douglasschuckert]

The 10mm round is a VERY powerful round. Its actually too powerful for practical use. The 10mm MP5 was tried and was not adopted because of extraction and feeding issues with the rolling bolt/delayed blowback action in the MP5 (and the P7 series) and the fact that the round simply has too much penetration. It will go through the badguy, the wall behind him, through the person on the other side of the wall, and the lodge in the tree outside. (its an exaggeration, but a close scenario). Not to mention it is EXTREMELY expensive to shoot. :-) Typical LEO's cant use it because they cant afford to train with it. Never train in a caliber you're not going to use. :-). Lower caliber conversion kits should never been used as a training substitute, augmentation at best, but never as a substitute. (why the military does not use .22LR kits in the M16's anymore).

[douglasschuckert]

BTW... the .45 round is anything but obsolete. It gets used almost as much as the 9mm, and the .45 has been around for a LOT longer. 9mm & 45 are the two most popular rounds chambered today. (in autos at least... even more so than the 40cal). Its the closest thing we can come to perfection for the rolls that that round was designed to play. No other pistol caliber round is as effective across the range of uses as it is.

If H&K could have gotten the .45 to work properly in the design of the MP5 it would have dominated. The .45 is simply too powerful for the bolt actions of either the MP5 or the P7. The design they did have for it was cost prohibitive to produce in mass and maintain the profit margin that H&K was seeking.

I would LOVE to have one of the 12 prototypes H&K made of the P7 in .45 as well as the MP5. Unfortunetly for us, there are none on the market. You can get a clone and add a sear to it for a full auto weapon in .45 that looks similar to the MP5, but nothing genuine H&K.... heres to wishing... *sigh*.


I just read SDC's signature line... thats a hoot... it should apply to Australia as well :-)! Very creative!

[SDC]

You're arguing AGAINST your own position with the figures you posted, but that's not surprising, given that you also seem to have swallowed Extreme Shock's advertising shtick. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for a bullet to deliver any more energy at the point of impact than was imparted to that bullet at the point of firing, unless you want to believe that magic pixies fly along behind that bullet pushing it faster and faster. The only reason the bullet does damage at the receiving end is because it has a smaller frontal area (ie. that energy is focused into an area around 1/10th of a square inch) and because it's going a lot faster (because it weighs so much less than the launching platform).
Since there is no advantage to the 45 in a firearm that is going to be placing multiple rounds on a target in full-auto anyway, it brings me back to "Why?" There are PLENTY of reliable and available high-capacity magazines in 9mm already (you'll note that they had to use Glock 21 mags for their prototype, instead of something with a reasonable capacity).
You might also want to actually TRY that "round in a campfire" routine sometime, too; without a chamber to contain and direct the energy of the powder burning, all that happens is a "pop", with the bullet staying where it is and the now-empty case squirting off 5 or 6 feet.

[STAGE 2]

Anyone who postulates that the .45 is an obsolete round has about as much sense as this 230 grain pill sitting right here on my desk top.

[SDC]

For an SMG (which is DESIGNED to put multiple hits on a target in full-auto), the 45 IS obsolete; I love shooting the '28 Thompson, but that doesn't change the fact that the 45 doesn't do anything that the 9mm can't do just as well in an SMG, and easier to boot.

[Scorch]

I have to wonder why they'd produce it in 45; large-capacity mags in 9mm are MUCH more available,

It makes no difference to a weapons manufacturer whether or not someone already makes something you need. You design it, then make it.

A 75gr, HP, .223 round (a very, very heavy bullet for the .223), will hit the target at 1058 pounds of pressure @ 100 yards

Actually, that's foot-pounds of kinetic energy. Pressure is measured in pounds per square inch (psi). Kinetic energy has nothing to do with pressure, it is a function of mass and velocity.

The 9mm and the .45 hit on target with nearly identical forces.... but thats just half of the equation. You also have to consider bullet weight. The weight (or mass) of an object exponentially effects any given objects impact...

They do not hit with nearly identical force. But you're right, that is only half of the equation: the velocity component of the equation (1/2 M X V squared) is exponential, i.e. double velocity, quadruple energy. Bullet weight relationship to the result is linear, i.e. double the bullet weight, double the energy. But this all depends on whether or not you believe that velocity trumps bullet weight. I think not, at least until you reach about 2,500 fps, and no 9mm Parabellum load I know of hits 2,500 fps.

It gets used almost as much as the 9mm, and the .45 has been around for a LOT longer.

9mm Parabellum was introduced in 1906 for what became the P-08, what we Americans call the Luger pistol. The 45 ACP as we know it came into existence in 1909-1910 after the Army rejected the 210 gr slug for the 45 Automatic round JM Browning invented in 1905.

The KRISS would be a FAR SUPERIOR SMG TO THE MP5 (as long as it was as reliable).

Yes, it could be better if it were at least as good.

[Tibu]

IS the KRISS SMG the one that has some sort of cam in the action that redirects recoil at an angle? (as in back and down instead of back and up)

[oldbillthundercheif]

Yep. Check out the graphic at 1:16 on this video. You can see the "slider assembly" that is responsible for the funny counterweight action. The "Futureweapons" guy is mildly irritating, but the video is top-notch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2kEg8rEPl8