Help Me Choose My First IDPA Gun

Mercenary · October 23, 2011, 10:37 PM

I am really wanting to get into competitive shooting and a friend of mine just told me that there is a relatively local place that shoots IDPA. Since IDPA is geared towards real life scenarios I would prefer to get a gun that is not too big for CCW that way I can use it for both. I have a few concerns about some of my options in regards to their size and CCW. So far here they are:

XDM - is this too big for CCW?
XDM 3.8 Compact
M&P Pro - too big for CCW?
CZ P-07 Duty
CZ P-01
CZ SP-01 Phantom - too big for CCW?
CZ 75 - too big for CCW?

Unfortunately my LGS only have a XDsc, Standard M&P, and CZ 75 for rental so I cannot really try them all to see which one I like best.

Mercenary · October 24, 2011, 07:42 PM

Come on guys, 50+ views and only one vote? Please help me out here.

Jim Watson · October 24, 2011, 08:02 PM

I don't get into the pious platitudes about "real life."
IDPA is competition, I use guns suitable for competition and within the rules. Not that I would care to wear a full size gun all day under concealment, I have other stuff for that. Compact guns I will occasionally shoot in a match for familiarization, but not when I care about scores.

bamaranger · October 24, 2011, 08:23 PM

Only pistol I'm familiar w/ in your poll is the CZ 75. So one vote for it.

Therealkoop · October 24, 2011, 09:34 PM

XDMs are considered single action, and are regulated as such and are allowed only is ESP. So if you want to shoot esp, then this is a viable coice.

M&P pro is usually 5" i think not 4.25. If i had to pick a gun for IDPA out of these, it would be this by a longshot. It fits all the requirements needed to shoot SSP.

CZ's are iffy. You cant have a full length dustcover so that rules out the railed versions like the sp-01. Ive also heard that some of the CZ's dont meet weight requirements needed for IDPA. Theres another issue ive heard of but I cant think of it right now.

you dont have to carry your IDPA gun, but a large gun isnt difficult to carry so long as you have a good belt and holster.

I vote M&P.

Mercenary · October 24, 2011, 09:43 PM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Excellent information for a newbie. Very informative. I didn't know about the full length dust cover rule. So that pretty much eliminates all the CZ's except the 75, right??

Do you think the XDM has what it takes to compete in the ESP class? What am I likely to run up against there, tuned 1911's

??

Jim Watson · October 24, 2011, 10:19 PM

You can back door some of the long dust cover CZs if they make weight; which calls for the lightest available grips and magazines. Not worth it to me, the CZ75 is a fine shooter.

SA is now offering the XDM 5.25 that seems directed at IDPA ESP and IPSC Production. The most common non-1911 I see in ESP is a modified G34. But I think an XDM or S&W Plastic M&P Pro can equal it. If you can.

tschmittel · October 31, 2011, 01:52 PM

How bout a Glock 19.

Jim Watson · October 31, 2011, 02:04 PM

Yeah, yeah, Glock 19 that's it.
Shorter sight radius and shorter butt make it harder for him to get good scores and beat me.
That's what he needs, all right.

chris in va · November 2, 2011, 10:21 PM

My scores went from zero to hero once I switched from my G21 to the CZ 75. Ergos are a huge factor.

fourrobert13 · November 2, 2011, 10:41 PM

I chose an M&P because that's the closest thing you have to a Glock in your poll

.

gunrobot · November 3, 2011, 12:45 AM

4" M&P 9mm with a Apex competition trigger kit. Will work for both IDPA and USPSA Production, yes small enough to carry for CCW. Fiber front sight, all black rears. M&P has a rail so you can get a TLR-1 and it'll be a good Home defense gun as well.

Best of all worlds actually. You can do the same with a Glock 19/17 but I personally prefer a M&P.

hope that helps!

Viper225 · November 3, 2011, 10:25 AM

I think your IDPA and also CCW requirement needed another catagory.
None of the above.

Out of the ones listed I would go with the M&P Pro. Great choice for IDPA, A little big to concealed carry well. If I were limited to your list I would make it work for CCW. I have an XDm, and I have been thinking about getting an inside the waistband holster for. I could see what I can do with it over the Winter.

Another one not listed would be a Commander size 1911. A little more CCW friendly.

Another one not listed would be a 3" K Frame Revolver. Be different from the pack, and shoot a wheel gun.

I carry almost daily. I also shoot an Outlaw IDPA match almost every month. I shoot multiple guns in the match. Normally some combination of the ones listed below. I also concealed carry the same guns, switching around.
My main gun for the Match is my S&W 64 in 4" carried in a Lobo Enhanced Pancake. I also shoot my 625 in a 3" carried in a Lobo Model 1, My 1911 full size carried in a Rafter S Askens Avenger, and I am going to start shooting my 310 Night Guard carried in a Lobo Enhanced Pancake when Ray gets it shipped to me. I also shoot my S&W 610 4" which I have a Lobo Enhanced Pancake ordered for, and my XDm 40 in a Serpa. I also shoot my 638 in BUG which in our Outlaw Match shoots on the same course of fire as everything else. I have a Lobo Model 1 for it also.

You might go to a match, and look over the gear. Paying attention to anyone whose gear looks like they daily carry it.

Bob

Don P · November 3, 2011, 11:06 AM

I got to shoot a XDM 5.25

All I can say is nice, very nice. When I can swing it $ wise it will be my next purchase.

Dennis1209 · November 3, 2011, 12:40 PM

Well, being a long time IDPA member (about three months now) and attending three matches already, I've noticed a few things. 95% of the competitors shoot competition guns with five inch barrels. I asked a few competitors if that was their everyday carry gun. Response: No, one of my competition guns.

I'm in it to learn and improve my self defense skills and shoot my carry guns. I ain't never going to win in the SSP division anyway. I go to enjoy myself, get the minimal amount of "procedurals", and try not to shoot myself or anyone else

Lots of fun but shooting factory .45's is getting a bit expensive. I have shot my sons M&P9, great dependable accurate gun. Good luck!

RickB · November 3, 2011, 05:11 PM

Most of the guns listed in the poll are not especially popular in IDPA. Most people who are shooting plastic guns want to shoot in Stock Service Pistol division, and the XDs are not SSP legal. The CZ-75, in its many variants, has a bit of popularity, also in Enhanced Service Pistol as with the XDs, but most people do not like the DA/SA trigger - and as noted, some models have trouble making weight - preferring either true single action, or the similar trigger seen on most modern striker-fired pistols. The M&P would probably be my choice, as it's SSP legal, and the triggers, while OK from the factory, can be modified to give very nice, smooth, consistent, single-action style breaks.

Therealkoop · November 3, 2011, 08:07 PM

The XDm can compete in esp, you wont be shooting against crazy raceguns or anything, it would just be better if you could shoot SSP with it is all.

tschmittel · November 4, 2011, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Yeah, yeah, Glock 19 that's it.
Shorter sight radius and shorter butt make it harder for him to get good scores and beat me.
That's what he needs, all right.

I thought he might be serious about ccw by reading his post.

MP9 · November 4, 2011, 03:55 PM

Are you a new shooter?

Have you been in any IDPA match before? if not, you can go and see what guns people use there and ask them.. probably you will see glocks, 1911, m&p, xds and other.. in that order.

the people there usually is nice and they can answer any question do you have.

I use my m&p9 and I've been doing well.. last week I put hard sear and usb,the trigger feel better now..

but if you are new to IDPA/shooting dont worry so much about the trigger for now..

I have a g19, and after 1 year I like more the glock trigger.. short reset and there is not any false reset as in the m&p9...

probably you would end buying a 2nd gun after a while hahaahaa..

after some time if you really like it and want to go deep with idpa/uspsa, with trigger jobs, sights, upgrades,etc.. I dont know how easy is the the CZ series. to modify and buy parts..

once I hold a cz75 and was very comfortable in my hand as my m&p too.

the g19 is for me a little easier to cc than m&p, the grip is larger and with the g19 you can do very well anyway...

John Z Sr. · November 4, 2011, 05:35 PM

I really get a kick out of all this. Go to any IDPA match and look at the guys in the parking lot as they get ready to leave. Most are stcking 5 shot J-Frames in their back pocket, but during a match all they can talk about is "real life" and this will "save your life" stuff. Please guys, and ladies, it's a game. Real scores are not "down 1 or 3" he who is in the morgue, lost, just that simple. it's a sport, treat it as such, be safe and have fun. Just my opinion.

serf 'rett · November 4, 2011, 06:22 PM

As stated above, the XDm can only be used in ESP division of IDPA. I have a full size 9mm that I’ve used for a couple of years, in fact, I use it most often in competition. Tried to talk myself into buying a Glock, but the XDm’s ergonomics felt better for me. A few advantages of the XDm are short trigger set, good sight radius, smooth trigger (at least in my pistol) and I haven’t experienced mechanical failure to date. The grip safety and trigger safety make it easy to draw and shoot. Additional pluses are the pistol comes with a paddle holster and two mag holder which can be used until you decide if you need an upgrade comp rig. Springfield is running a special - offering 3 free magazines with purchase of a new pistol before November 30. A disadvantage is you will be locked into ESP division only. It's also a little harder to find accessories for the XDm.

Before you plunk down the cash for the new completion 5.25 Springfield, you may need to make sure it will fit in an IPDA box (I don’t think this is a problem) and that the cutout in the slide in not considered “slide lightening” as defined by in the rulebook – “Slide, lightening: Removal of portions of the slide to gain a competitive advantage.” Slide lightening is an excluded modification in ESP and SSP divisions. You also need to check the weight of the CZ-75; too heavy – no shootie in comp.

I sometimes compete in SSP division with a 40S&W IWI Baby Eagle (steel), which is a CZ-75 based weapon. Disadvantages are a DA/SA trigger and slide mounted safety. I would list the weight as a disadvantage; however, it appears to be a plus in dampening the 40S&W recoil. A few advantages are better ergonomics (for me), a great SA trigger after the first shot, better accuracy and just fun to shoot. Any pistol approved for SSP can be used in ESP (or CDP if .45 caliber), provided the pistol meets all other division criteria. Thus a stock service pistol could allow you to compete in either SSP or CDP.

Carrying the pistol concealed is a different animal. I have carried both of the above in Uncle Mike simple clip on nylon holster (I don’t recommend this) and in a Crossbreed Super Tuck (a good piece of equipment); however, I normally opt for something smaller and lighter nowadays. The steel frame IWI BE is a heavy hulking thing requiring serious support to keep the pants up. The poly frame XDm was a much easier carry, but still took some conditioning, as any full sized pistol will require. I’m a large guy so I can perhaps carry a larger pistol easier; yet it’s really easy to carry one of the smaller pistols. Your size and disposition may be big factors in determining what and how you will carry. After carrying a full size pistol for a while, you may find yourself getting one of the smaller jobs for carry, while retaining your first love for competition and home defense (also known as the 870 Remington backup).

Which platform to get between the XDm and CZ-75? Dang hard choice because I’d want both for different reasons. Guess that didn’t help much. I’d lean toward the poly pistol if I was planning on hauling the thing around, but toward the steel CZ for comp. While I haven't shot a M&P, I have heard some folks say they liked them.

Therealkoop · November 4, 2011, 08:09 PM

John Z

While you are right in many cases, and IDPA is a game first are foremost, any handgun practice would be of benefit to anyone who would have to defend thier life with one.

Just because i IDPA with a 5" 1911 doesnt mean I will suddenly go stupid if i pick up a CCO 1911, or even a j frame.

View Poll Results: IDPA That I Can CCW
XDM	2	9.09%
XDM 3.8 Compact	1	4.55%
M&P Pro 4.25"	11	50.00%
P-07 Duty	0	0%
P-01	0	0%
SP-01 Phantom	2	9.09%
CZ 75	6	27.27%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

October 23, 2011, 10:37 PM	#1
Mercenary Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2011 Location: NC Posts: 311	Help Me Choose My First IDPA Gun I am really wanting to get into competitive shooting and a friend of mine just told me that there is a relatively local place that shoots IDPA. Since IDPA is geared towards real life scenarios I would prefer to get a gun that is not too big for CCW that way I can use it for both. I have a few concerns about some of my options in regards to their size and CCW. So far here they are: XDM - is this too big for CCW? XDM 3.8 Compact M&P Pro - too big for CCW? CZ P-07 Duty CZ P-01 CZ SP-01 Phantom - too big for CCW? CZ 75 - too big for CCW? Unfortunately my LGS only have a XDsc, Standard M&P, and CZ 75 for rental so I cannot really try them all to see which one I like best. __________________ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson

October 24, 2011, 07:42 PM	#2
Mercenary Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2011 Location: NC Posts: 311	Come on guys, 50+ views and only one vote? Please help me out here. __________________ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson

October 24, 2011, 08:23 PM	#4
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,303	sorry Only pistol I'm familiar w/ in your poll is the CZ 75. So one vote for it.

October 24, 2011, 09:43 PM	#6
Mercenary Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2011 Location: NC Posts: 311	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Excellent information for a newbie. Very informative. I didn't know about the full length dust cover rule. So that pretty much eliminates all the CZ's except the 75, right?? Do you think the XDM has what it takes to compete in the ESP class? What am I likely to run up against there, tuned 1911's ?? __________________ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson

October 24, 2011, 08:02 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	I don't get into the pious platitudes about "real life." IDPA is competition, I use guns suitable for competition and within the rules. Not that I would care to wear a full size gun all day under concealment, I have other stuff for that. Compact guns I will occasionally shoot in a match for familiarization, but not when I care about scores.

October 24, 2011, 09:34 PM	#5
Therealkoop Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2010 Posts: 285	XDMs are considered single action, and are regulated as such and are allowed only is ESP. So if you want to shoot esp, then this is a viable coice. M&P pro is usually 5" i think not 4.25. If i had to pick a gun for IDPA out of these, it would be this by a longshot. It fits all the requirements needed to shoot SSP. CZ's are iffy. You cant have a full length dustcover so that rules out the railed versions like the sp-01. Ive also heard that some of the CZ's dont meet weight requirements needed for IDPA. Theres another issue ive heard of but I cant think of it right now. you dont have to carry your IDPA gun, but a large gun isnt difficult to carry so long as you have a good belt and holster. I vote M&P.

October 24, 2011, 10:19 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	You can back door some of the long dust cover CZs if they make weight; which calls for the lightest available grips and magazines. Not worth it to me, the CZ75 is a fine shooter. SA is now offering the XDM 5.25 that seems directed at IDPA ESP and IPSC Production. The most common non-1911 I see in ESP is a modified G34. But I think an XDM or S&W Plastic M&P Pro can equal it. If you can.

October 31, 2011, 01:52 PM	#8
tschmittel Member Join Date: July 19, 2007 Location: Chicago area Posts: 81	How bout a Glock 19.

October 31, 2011, 02:04 PM	#9
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	Yeah, yeah, Glock 19 that's it. Shorter sight radius and shorter butt make it harder for him to get good scores and beat me. That's what he needs, all right.

November 2, 2011, 10:21 PM	#10
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	My scores went from zero to hero once I switched from my G21 to the CZ 75. Ergos are a huge factor.

November 2, 2011, 10:41 PM	#11
fourrobert13 Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: South West Ohio Posts: 336	I chose an M&P because that's the closest thing you have to a Glock in your poll. __________________ Be aware of yourself and everything around you.

November 3, 2011, 12:45 AM	#12
gunrobot Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 2009 Posts: 442	4" M&P 9mm with a Apex competition trigger kit. Will work for both IDPA and USPSA Production, yes small enough to carry for CCW. Fiber front sight, all black rears. M&P has a rail so you can get a TLR-1 and it'll be a good Home defense gun as well. Best of all worlds actually. You can do the same with a Glock 19/17 but I personally prefer a M&P. hope that helps! __________________ [ http://gunbot.org \| http://www.youtube.com/user/gunrobot ]

November 3, 2011, 10:25 AM	#13
Viper225 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2009 Location: SC Missouri Posts: 663	I think your IDPA and also CCW requirement needed another catagory. None of the above. Out of the ones listed I would go with the M&P Pro. Great choice for IDPA, A little big to concealed carry well. If I were limited to your list I would make it work for CCW. I have an XDm, and I have been thinking about getting an inside the waistband holster for. I could see what I can do with it over the Winter. Another one not listed would be a Commander size 1911. A little more CCW friendly. Another one not listed would be a 3" K Frame Revolver. Be different from the pack, and shoot a wheel gun. I carry almost daily. I also shoot an Outlaw IDPA match almost every month. I shoot multiple guns in the match. Normally some combination of the ones listed below. I also concealed carry the same guns, switching around. My main gun for the Match is my S&W 64 in 4" carried in a Lobo Enhanced Pancake. I also shoot my 625 in a 3" carried in a Lobo Model 1, My 1911 full size carried in a Rafter S Askens Avenger, and I am going to start shooting my 310 Night Guard carried in a Lobo Enhanced Pancake when Ray gets it shipped to me. I also shoot my S&W 610 4" which I have a Lobo Enhanced Pancake ordered for, and my XDm 40 in a Serpa. I also shoot my 638 in BUG which in our Outlaw Match shoots on the same course of fire as everything else. I have a Lobo Model 1 for it also. You might go to a match, and look over the gear. Paying attention to anyone whose gear looks like they daily carry it. Bob

November 3, 2011, 11:06 AM	#14
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	I got to shoot a XDM 5.25 All I can say is nice, very nice. When I can swing it $ wise it will be my next purchase. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

November 3, 2011, 12:40 PM	#15
Dennis1209 Member Join Date: July 8, 2011 Location: NW Tennessee Posts: 93	Well, being a long time IDPA member (about three months now) and attending three matches already, I've noticed a few things. 95% of the competitors shoot competition guns with five inch barrels. I asked a few competitors if that was their everyday carry gun. Response: No, one of my competition guns. I'm in it to learn and improve my self defense skills and shoot my carry guns. I ain't never going to win in the SSP division anyway. I go to enjoy myself, get the minimal amount of "procedurals", and try not to shoot myself or anyone else Lots of fun but shooting factory .45's is getting a bit expensive. I have shot my sons M&P9, great dependable accurate gun. Good luck! __________________ It's TEA TIME

November 3, 2011, 05:11 PM	#16
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Most of the guns listed in the poll are not especially popular in IDPA. Most people who are shooting plastic guns want to shoot in Stock Service Pistol division, and the XDs are not SSP legal. The CZ-75, in its many variants, has a bit of popularity, also in Enhanced Service Pistol as with the XDs, but most people do not like the DA/SA trigger - and as noted, some models have trouble making weight - preferring either true single action, or the similar trigger seen on most modern striker-fired pistols. The M&P would probably be my choice, as it's SSP legal, and the triggers, while OK from the factory, can be modified to give very nice, smooth, consistent, single-action style breaks.

November 3, 2011, 08:07 PM	#17
Therealkoop Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2010 Posts: 285	The XDm can compete in esp, you wont be shooting against crazy raceguns or anything, it would just be better if you could shoot SSP with it is all.

November 4, 2011, 03:55 PM	#19
MP9 Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Posts: 116	Are you a new shooter? Have you been in any IDPA match before? if not, you can go and see what guns people use there and ask them.. probably you will see glocks, 1911, m&p, xds and other.. in that order. the people there usually is nice and they can answer any question do you have. I use my m&p9 and I've been doing well.. last week I put hard sear and usb,the trigger feel better now.. but if you are new to IDPA/shooting dont worry so much about the trigger for now.. I have a g19, and after 1 year I like more the glock trigger.. short reset and there is not any false reset as in the m&p9... probably you would end buying a 2nd gun after a while hahaahaa.. after some time if you really like it and want to go deep with idpa/uspsa, with trigger jobs, sights, upgrades,etc.. I dont know how easy is the the CZ series. to modify and buy parts.. once I hold a cz75 and was very comfortable in my hand as my m&p too. the g19 is for me a little easier to cc than m&p, the grip is larger and with the g19 you can do very well anyway...

November 4, 2011, 05:35 PM	#20
John Z Sr. Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2011 Posts: 4	I really get a kick out of all this. Go to any IDPA match and look at the guys in the parking lot as they get ready to leave. Most are stcking 5 shot J-Frames in their back pocket, but during a match all they can talk about is "real life" and this will "save your life" stuff. Please guys, and ladies, it's a game. Real scores are not "down 1 or 3" he who is in the morgue, lost, just that simple. it's a sport, treat it as such, be safe and have fun. Just my opinion. __________________ It's all fun and games 'til someone gets bit!

November 4, 2011, 06:22 PM	#21
serf 'rett Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2009 Location: Stuttgart, AR Posts: 1,569	As stated above, the XDm can only be used in ESP division of IDPA. I have a full size 9mm that I’ve used for a couple of years, in fact, I use it most often in competition. Tried to talk myself into buying a Glock, but the XDm’s ergonomics felt better for me. A few advantages of the XDm are short trigger set, good sight radius, smooth trigger (at least in my pistol) and I haven’t experienced mechanical failure to date. The grip safety and trigger safety make it easy to draw and shoot. Additional pluses are the pistol comes with a paddle holster and two mag holder which can be used until you decide if you need an upgrade comp rig. Springfield is running a special - offering 3 free magazines with purchase of a new pistol before November 30. A disadvantage is you will be locked into ESP division only. It's also a little harder to find accessories for the XDm. Before you plunk down the cash for the new completion 5.25 Springfield, you may need to make sure it will fit in an IPDA box (I don’t think this is a problem) and that the cutout in the slide in not considered “slide lightening” as defined by in the rulebook – “Slide, lightening: Removal of portions of the slide to gain a competitive advantage.” Slide lightening is an excluded modification in ESP and SSP divisions. You also need to check the weight of the CZ-75; too heavy – no shootie in comp. I sometimes compete in SSP division with a 40S&W IWI Baby Eagle (steel), which is a CZ-75 based weapon. Disadvantages are a DA/SA trigger and slide mounted safety. I would list the weight as a disadvantage; however, it appears to be a plus in dampening the 40S&W recoil. A few advantages are better ergonomics (for me), a great SA trigger after the first shot, better accuracy and just fun to shoot. Any pistol approved for SSP can be used in ESP (or CDP if .45 caliber), provided the pistol meets all other division criteria. Thus a stock service pistol could allow you to compete in either SSP or CDP. Carrying the pistol concealed is a different animal. I have carried both of the above in Uncle Mike simple clip on nylon holster (I don’t recommend this) and in a Crossbreed Super Tuck (a good piece of equipment); however, I normally opt for something smaller and lighter nowadays. The steel frame IWI BE is a heavy hulking thing requiring serious support to keep the pants up. The poly frame XDm was a much easier carry, but still took some conditioning, as any full sized pistol will require. I’m a large guy so I can perhaps carry a larger pistol easier; yet it’s really easy to carry one of the smaller pistols. Your size and disposition may be big factors in determining what and how you will carry. After carrying a full size pistol for a while, you may find yourself getting one of the smaller jobs for carry, while retaining your first love for competition and home defense (also known as the 870 Remington backup). Which platform to get between the XDm and CZ-75? Dang hard choice because I’d want both for different reasons. Guess that didn’t help much. I’d lean toward the poly pistol if I was planning on hauling the thing around, but toward the steel CZ for comp. While I haven't shot a M&P, I have heard some folks say they liked them. __________________ A lack of planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part.

November 4, 2011, 08:09 PM	#22
Therealkoop Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2010 Posts: 285	John Z While you are right in many cases, and IDPA is a game first are foremost, any handgun practice would be of benefit to anyone who would have to defend thier life with one. Just because i IDPA with a 5" 1911 doesnt mean I will suddenly go stupid if i pick up a CCO 1911, or even a j frame.