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August 20, 2014, 11:52 PM | #1 |
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Out of state purchase, ship to FFL gunsmith for customization, ship to me direct?
Hi all,
As the title suggests, am I allowed to purchase a rifle out of state, then have it sent directly to a gunsmith (also out of state) with the appropriate FFL for customization, then have the rifle sent to me directly? The gunsmith receives a rifle that has become mine from the original owner, customizes it, and sends what's already mine to me directly from out of state. I know it's different if the gunsmith were to sell me a rifle directly, which isn't allowed since I do not have an FFL. And, I'm assuming that the gunsmith acting as the FFL to receive the rifle from the original owner is ok. To me, it sounds like a variation of purchasing a rifle and having it sent to an FFL dealer, from whom I would pick it up from. Just making sure there's no problem with this. Thanks in advance. Last edited by Lee Enfield; August 21, 2014 at 12:13 AM. |
August 21, 2014, 12:19 AM | #2 |
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I can't tell you for sure it isn't legal, but I don't think it would be. To begin with I believe the gunsmith is only allowed to return the firearm to the address/person it was received from in the first place. If this were legal we would have a thread called "What's the gunsmith loopohole?"
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August 21, 2014, 01:03 AM | #3 |
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Nope. He'll have to ship it to a licensee in your state, at which point that licensee will transfer it to you.
There's no "loophole." Gunsmiths are subject to the same rules as everybody else.
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August 21, 2014, 01:09 AM | #4 |
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So, would it be ok if I purchase a rifle, have it sent to me directly, then send it off to be customized?
Similarly, after sending it off for a repair done out of state, would I have to go through an FFL licensee in my state, or can it be sent directly to me? Would repairs and customizations fall under the same rule? By the way, I'm not looking for a loophole. I'm trying to understand these rules. I was thinking out logically, but what I think is logical (though it may not be logical) and what the technicalities of the law are can be very different. |
August 21, 2014, 01:14 AM | #5 |
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If you ship the rifle to a gunsmith, they can ship it back directly to you.
But, if it passes through anyone else in the process, it has to go through an FFL* to be transferred back to you. *The FFL doesn't, necessarily, have to be in your state; but the state that they're in has to be a legal state from which to transfer a rifle under your state's law. Either way, you have to be there for the background check and transfer, in person.
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August 21, 2014, 01:18 AM | #6 |
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Thanks, FrankenMauser. That makes sense. I was thinking it would be very cumbersome and illogical to directly ship a rifle to a gunsmith out of state and have it go through an FFL in my state every time I wanted repairs or small mods. That clears it up.
I would just have to go through an FFL for all original purchases of rifles. |
August 21, 2014, 01:18 AM | #7 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
This is federal law. Your state laws may vary. [Derp. Frankenmauser beat me to it.]
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August 21, 2014, 01:21 AM | #8 |
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Thanks Tom, it's always nice to have confirmation from multiple sources.
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August 21, 2014, 06:05 AM | #9 |
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I don't know if this is how it is supposed to work or not, but when I had a sccy pistol, I had to send it back to factory several times. they just shipped the gun right back to me with UPS, I had to sign for it.
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August 21, 2014, 11:48 AM | #10 | |
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August 22, 2014, 09:25 AM | #11 | |
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The simplest thing to do is have the out-of-state seller send it to a local FFL and take possession of it after filling out the 4473. I'd want to inspect it before it was modified anyway. Then ship it to the gunsmith, who can ship it back to you. |
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August 22, 2014, 11:07 AM | #12 |
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When sending stuff off for custom work you can ship it directly AFAIK to the smith and he can send it back directly to you. (the gun never changes ownership It is always yours and doesn't need to be rechecked.
That said (feel free to correct if wrong) I ALWAYS ship my guns from my favorite FFL. It makes me feel alot better knowing that he is experienced in dealing with such matters if a problem arises. It doesn't mark my address as a point of origin... It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out if you are getting packages from S&W that its likely that address has firearms. And the last main thing. He is always there to receive his shipments. I've had a delivery driver just leave a boxed firearm on my front steps for several hours while I was away. That just makes me uncomfortable.
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August 22, 2014, 11:32 AM | #13 | |
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August 22, 2014, 11:50 AM | #14 | |
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Note that both exceptions require that the firearm be returned to the person from whom [it was] received; there is no apparent allowance for someone else to act as an intermediary. Accordingly, if a FFL returns a repaired or customized firearm to another party, the exceptions no longer apply; the transaction must be treated as a standard transfer.
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August 22, 2014, 12:51 PM | #15 |
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Of course the Gunsmith needs an FFL im just saying because it was your gun in the first place it doesnt need to return to you through another FFL its already yours not a 'new gun'
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August 22, 2014, 12:55 PM | #16 | |
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Ownership is irrelevant.
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August 22, 2014, 01:32 PM | #17 | |
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When dealing with legal issues one needs to understand the right reasons for a result. Otherwise he will apply incorrect reasoning to a different situation and get things wrong, and that could get him into a lot of trouble.
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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August 22, 2014, 01:45 PM | #18 |
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how is it incorrect? a transfer means transfer of ownership. The ATF doesn't consider sending a gun in for work or repair as a transfer. that is why it can be returned directly to you? unless the repair requires a new serialized part then it must go to your local ffl?
Now i am just looking for clarification.
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E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that. I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph. -Smaug |
August 22, 2014, 02:34 PM | #19 | ||||||||||
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Quote:
Quote:
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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August 22, 2014, 02:36 PM | #20 |
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ahhh. got it. so much simpler then trying to puzzle it out. Thanks.
I apologize for any confusion I caused.
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E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that. I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph. -Smaug |
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