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Old November 1, 2015, 04:07 PM   #1
Cossack
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Remington Core-Lokt 8x57 (8mm Mauser) bullet diameter

I have read unsubstantiated rumors online that Remington, out of fear of liability, underloads their Core-Lokt 170 grain Soft Point (R8MSR) and loads it with a bullet smaller than .323. In a thread I read on another site, someone said he took a Micrometer to some of this and it came out to .318. Another poster on another site said no, it's a .323 bullet.

Does anyone have a box that you can measure and let me know the diameter? there's none available in town for me to try out, and I hate spend shipping on an order of one box just to try it out. If I'm going to place an order and pay shipping, I want to get a few boxes - but I'd like to know for sure before I do.

Thanks!
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Old November 1, 2015, 05:36 PM   #2
FrankenMauser
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Remington factory loads use a bullet that measures 0.3205" to 0.321". (Based on samples that I pulled and measured.)

The confusion, I believe, comes the variety of other diameters encountered on the market in the United States: Everything from 0.318" bullets to full-diameter 0.323" bullets, all labeled as ".323 bores only".
In addition, Remington also (normally) sells a component version of the 8mm Core-Lokt. It is almost always found in 0.323" diameter, but they occasionally also sell them at 0.318".

Remington, alone, offers 0.318", 0.3205/0.321", and 0.323" diameters of exactly the same bullet.
Nearly every other factory bullet is 0.319" to 0.321".
Nearly every other component bullet is 0.323".

No matter which angle you look at it from, the market is a mess. ...And people get confused easily.

Plus, all of the American-made 8x57mm ammo is ridiculously under-powered and nearly worthless. The Remington Core-Lokt load, for example, is one of the better loads, but still produces comically low muzzle velocity and is often said to be operating at just 38k psi (only 65% of its design pressure).

There is one alternative that's slightly better: Federal offers a 170 gr SP factory load that uses a 0.323" bullet. It's still a "weak" load, but better than any of the other domestic offerings.
(I had major headspace issues with this ammo [0.060" short!], but I'm sure Federal has worked that out by now. ...It was about 10 years ago.)


That being said...
My opinion of domestic 8x57mm ammo and component bullets was formed before Hornady and Nosler offered anything. From what I hear, the Hornady and Nosler 8x57mm options are pretty decent, run at or near full pressure, and they do use 0.323" bullets.
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Last edited by FrankenMauser; November 2, 2015 at 12:24 AM. Reason: Clarification.
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Old November 1, 2015, 05:53 PM   #3
Cossack
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Thanks. I'm actually hoping to find a load that uses bullets smaller than .323. My pre-WWII commercial mauser (see other recent threads of mine) has a bore (grooves) of about .320 or so. High pressure ammo with .323 bullets is what I'm trying to avoid so I don't hurt this old gun. I'm trying to find an effective hunting and shooting cartridge while still being careful with an old rifle that appears to be in 8x57j.
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Old November 2, 2015, 12:23 AM   #4
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It sounds like the Remington load may work for you, then.

But, just to clarify (and I'll edit my previous post):
The diameters I listed above (0.3205" to 0.321") for the Remington factory ammo were the diameters of bullets that I pulled from ammunition in my possession.

I have seen numbers all over the map, just like you, for the same ammunition. But I trust my own measurements and methods more than the internet.
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Old November 2, 2015, 12:58 AM   #5
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Thanks for clarifying. Lucky for me, Sportsman's Guide, which was out of the Rem. a couple days ago, just get it back in stock while running a no-minimum free shipping promotion. I bought one box to mic and try out. I'll check it before I make any assumptions, of course.
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Old November 2, 2015, 01:02 AM   #6
tahoe2
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I have seen New Old Stock, Remington Core Lokts in 8mm that were .322", bullets that are .321" are generally for the American 32 Special (30-30 punched out).
Commercial Ammo from Remington (and Federal) in 8mm is .323" to my understanding, but loaded to lower pressures to be viable in older .318" groove barrels without blowing up the gun.
I personally only shoot my own reloads in my guns, (not factory loads)and .323" bullets are the standard that I use, but I have yet to find any Core Lokt's available in stock anywhere.

Last edited by tahoe2; November 2, 2015 at 01:07 AM.
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Old November 2, 2015, 09:14 AM   #7
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Depends on what you want/need in a load. I hear the complaints about the "underpowered US lawyer loads" constantly. However, I'm not sure that this is such a bad thing. Not everyone wants or needs rounds loaded to maximum pressure/ velocity. It's all about the right tools for the job at hand. The "underpowered US lawyer loads" are still plenty effective for hunting, within reasonable distances.

No offense to anyone, but I strongly suspect that many of the complaints of this nature are really rooted in some kind of juvenile lust for power, for want of a better way to describe it. Like my younger friend with a long-barreled .357 magnum.....who refuses to shoot anything but full-house cartridges. He can't hit anything, but he thinks the big bang and flash is "cool". To each his own.....

I load 8mm Mauser (7.92 x 57JS, to be technically correct)...and have for many years. I do not push the round to maximum - as I have no need for that. It just isn't necessary, for my uses. Plus, keeping the pressures down does wonders to prolong barrel life, not to mention using less powder, etc.

Finally, interestingly enough, many of the "lawyer loads" roughly approximate military loads of the past, which were not loaded for absolute power, either. For example, the standard Yugoslav military load for the 8mm Mauser rifles consisted of a 198 grain bullet at about 2360 fps, producing around 2400 atm. That is just roughly 35,000 psi. That was considered effective enough - and ensured a good service life from the rifles in which it was used. Most of the other military loads for these rifles were similar. I don't hear many people refer to these loads as "wimpy" and "ridiculous", etc. Especially those who might have been on the receiving end of such rounds in war.
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Old November 2, 2015, 11:37 AM   #8
Art Eatman
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Beaucoup "nostalgia guns" out there, and not all were built to withstand modern pressures. Single-lug bolts or trap-doors, e.g. So, factory loads for such as .30-40 Krag, 7mm, 8mm and .45-70 are loaded for use in the old-timers.
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Old November 2, 2015, 11:39 AM   #9
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A Theory...

If you take a look at history, I think you will find that the "lawyer loads" actually predate our current obsession with legal liability.

The majority of European (metric) cartridges have nearly ALWAYS been "underloaded" by US ammo makers, compared to European made ammo.

Not so much the British rounds, but the European ones. Done from at least the early 1900s on. Not done due to fears of legal liability, worry about blowing up "weak old guns", indeed at the time, the "weak old guns" were often still current production.

You could make a case about the change in 8mm Mauser bore size, but, even if you accept that as the reason, it ONLY applies to the 8mm Mauser.

My personal theory is that there was an unwritten "gentleman's agreement" among US ammo makers, NOT to load European calibers to the full potential.

I think this was done, to ...encourage.. US consumers to buy American. It may not actually have been the intent, but it appears to be the result. Something any good conspiracy theorist could love.

Many caliber's US loadings did approximately match the original European loads, but as the Europeans increased the loadings, US makers (generally) did not. One might consider it to have been an attempt at trade protectionism via the market, rather than tariffs.

Look at the 9mm Luger round, as one famous example. Original specs called for a 124gr bullet @ 1050fps (4"), which was changed to a 115gr @ 1150fps, shortly before WWI.

Today people expect the 9mm 115gr (high performance) loads to be in the 12-1300fps range. European makers have been doing that for some time, but US makers did not, until fairly recently.

Another interesting fact is that while we "underloaded" European ammo (or kept to the original specs) we did NOT do that with US calibers.

The most famous example of this is the .30-06 (& to a lesser degree, .308 Winchester).

The original GI M2 ball specs are for a 150gr @ 2750fps (+/-). Current commercial .30-06 Springfield ammo runs a 150 in the 2900fps range, some even a bit faster.

I have heard many differing stories about the change in 8mm bullet diameter, some stating all the rifles in German service were converted, some say they were rebarreled, some say they were not, but had the throats relieved for the larger .323 bullets.

Commercial gun makers continued to produce .318" 8mm rifles for many years after the German military change to the larger bullet. These were (and are) the market for .318 slugs, and a rather larger one, overall, than the handful of military rifles that missed getting converted, I think.
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Old November 2, 2015, 07:18 PM   #10
Art Eatman
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To repeat, all those single-lug bolts are limited to about 40,000 psi. If modern pressures were used in the common "old gun" cartridges, blowups would be commonplace.
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Old November 4, 2015, 04:43 AM   #11
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I have to agree with Art. Some of those old cartridges go into some obscure guns, not just the model they were mainly loaded for. One of the best examples I can think of today is the 45-70 Trapdoor. Although I have never heard anything bad about it, I would really check into what glues a modified to 8mm Carcano together before firing hot ammo through it.
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Old November 4, 2015, 11:45 PM   #12
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absolutely one must use ammo suitable for the gun.

Rounds like the .30-40Krag, 6.5x55 Swede, 7mm x57 Mauser, and a few others need their factory ammo to be suitable for the originals. Let those with stronger modern guns handload if they want more.

I have a Ruger No.3 in .30-40 Krag. I could, in that rifle load up the 30-40 quite a bit. I don't. No point for me, I have other rounds for that level of performance. Plus it ensures that my ammo won't risk a Krag rifle.
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Old November 5, 2015, 12:19 AM   #13
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The present mild 8mm loads from RP, WW, and Fed with a 170 JSP at 2360 are said to be derived from the inter-war 8mm Remington Special which was developed for safe use in about any 8x57 that came along. Phil Sharpe said it gave safe performance in all rifles, exceptional performance in none; that handloading for the gun in hand was the way to go.

Looking at catalog data, the Nosler and Hornady 8mms are pushing real Euro specs. They aren't doing that at any 38000 CUP.

S&B seems about the hottest on the US market, Privi is only a little more than RP.
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Old November 7, 2015, 07:30 PM   #14
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I got my box in the mail from SG. It measured about .320 in my calipers, within .001 of my bore slug, whic was about .319. I figure I'm good to go.
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Old November 7, 2015, 11:21 PM   #15
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They're worried about people blowing up Commission Rifles and such..

"comically low" velocities... well indeed - the description alone made me laugh.
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