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Old September 22, 2015, 11:21 PM   #1
johnwilliamson062
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45-70 loads for deer

Put my 45-70 Katahdin with 1:20 twist rate Encore together and it balances well.
Next step is to put some lead down range(hopefully tomorrow afternoon). The used barrel I bought came with a couple boxes of Rem express 405 grain and a couple of Win Super X 300 grain.

I've not fired a 45-70 before, so I am expecting stout recoil similar to a 12ga. Will be starting off a lead sled though. I only expect to take shots inside 150yards max. Probably try to keep it in 75 yards this year unless I get out to shoot it a few more times than likely. I was looking for some lighter loads and found some Ultramax 405 grain pills that are about 300 fps slower than the Winchester. Seems like a more than poweful load for deer at that range or even out to 150 yards. Probably near PBR from 0 to 150. Thought or other loads I might try?

I will not be reloading this this year. I do have the 45-70 specific reloading manual from cabelas with loads from several sources.
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Old September 23, 2015, 04:11 AM   #2
Old Stony
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I've shot hogs and stuff with 45/70 and you don't need the super fast loads to do the job. I reload all mine, but the lower velocity factory 405 gr. loads will work just fine for the distances you are going to hunt. I load an approximate equivalent to the factory light loads, and they normally penetrate and exit a hog just fine.
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Old September 23, 2015, 05:46 AM   #3
NoSecondBest
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The 45-70 has been my favorite caliber for the last five or six years. I ended up with High Walls, Lever 1886, and a couple of Sharps. I've shot eight or nine deer with them so far and I have yet to recover even one bullet. All you need to shoot completely through even the largest whitetail is a 405g Rem JSP, and it will do it at any angle. My most accurate loads are with the 405g and up bullet weights. I shoot mostly Rem 405g loaded to around 1400-1450fps. They're pretty easy on my end and devastating on the deer's end. The Ultramax loads may not shoot as well since they are loaded way down and the bullet (lead, not jacketed) doesn't obturate much,if at all, at those velocities. They shot "OK" when I tried them at 50 and 75 yds but not so well at 100yds and beyond. You may have better performance than I did though. I'd suggest trying what ever you have on hand and picking the best grouping one for hunting. All will kill deer easily enough. Good luck.
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Old September 23, 2015, 08:38 AM   #4
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That UltraMax (of which I have several boxes since they load w/ Starline brass)
will kill anything East of the Mississippi -- and most everything West of it as well.

It's soft lead (a good thing) and I've had no problems with accuracy out of either
my `95 Marlin, `74 Sharps, or Lonestar Rolling Block

... and it's downright pleasant to shoot.
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Old September 23, 2015, 11:48 AM   #5
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If the question is what .45-70 load is adequate for deer, the answer is ALL of them. The black powder load has been taking deer since 1873, and the current factory load is the same weight and speed, although usually a jacketed bullet, and will do the same job the same way.

400gr (405) @ 1300fps approx. gets it done quite well. A little faster helps a bit with trajectory, but nothing is going to make it a "flat" shooter, and recoil goes up FAST with increases in bullet speed.

Choose which ever factory load shoots best in your rifle, and practice with it. They all work, and I have yet to meet a deer that could tell the difference...
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Old September 23, 2015, 12:22 PM   #6
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i load a ruger #3 to a higher speed to cut down the drop, not for more killing power. if i load a 350gr bullet at 1400fps in my repo sharps and sight it in for 100yds it will drop 11" at 150yds. if i load the 350gr bullet to 1900fps in my ruger #3, i cut the drop in half. eastbank.
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Old September 23, 2015, 01:00 PM   #7
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I had a Ruger #1S in 45-70 and it could hurt if not careful with loads. a Ruger#3 gives me the shakes just looking at it
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Old September 23, 2015, 07:36 PM   #8
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The hornady leverevolution 350gr load (or similar FTX handloads) flattens the .45-70 out so point blank range is out to about 200y. The terminal ballistics are medium game only, but that sounds fine for your purpose.

Or you could buy some of these:
http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/inde...w&ref=GC4570PP
and pay $6/shot for a very sore shoulder
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Old September 23, 2015, 08:49 PM   #9
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Missing my Marlin 1895-SBR...
Anyway, Leverevolution 325-gr & 350-gr are the sweet spot for .45-70, just like Big D said

What they do to a Florida Whitetail deer is pretty much a DRT (Dead Right There) as long as you do your part...

This guy pretty much did all the work for you, and breaks the science down in an easy-to-read manner, with pics for fun
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Know...damentals.html

Make sure you put the critter in front of a tree so you can dig the bullet out for re-casting for use on range days
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Old September 23, 2015, 09:34 PM   #10
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The standard Level I (trapdoor springfield-friendly) 300 gr flat point is just perfect, with low recoil. Federal blue box (power shok) - have at it!
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Old September 23, 2015, 09:56 PM   #11
johnwilliamson062
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Quote:
sight it in for 100yds it will drop 11" at 150yds.
Really? Have to make sure I pick the bigger target. Got a call from one of my tenants after work today and didn't make it to the range. Hopefully tomorrow...
The Hornady SST slugs are what I was shooting, but out of an autoloader. I will see if I can get a hold of the 325 and 250 leverolution cartridges before the season kicks off.

Last edited by johnwilliamson062; September 23, 2015 at 10:21 PM.
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Old September 23, 2015, 10:14 PM   #12
mehavey
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Sight that low-recoil UltraMax 4" high at 100.
You will be point blank ±5½" from muzzle to 150yds

Aim center-chest on deer and ignore range within that regime.
Simple.
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Old September 23, 2015, 10:25 PM   #13
Jim Watson
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"The Gould Express bullet, loaded with 85 grains of Hazard's Ducking Powder, will shoot practically as flat as a .45-90 and with greater accuracy."

The Gould Express, a 330 gr hollowpoint, is still available as Lyman 457122.
Montana Bullet Works sells one similar from a custom mould.
And, of course, you can load it with smokeless.
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Old September 24, 2015, 08:22 AM   #14
eastbank
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you will not need a bigger target, just learn how high to hold for the longer ranges. if you hold 6-7" up in a deers chaest with a 11" drop at the 150yds deer you will miss. i shoot the faster loads as my shots can be from 50-150 yrds very quickly. when i carry my sharps 74 with cast bullets at 1300-1400 fps i set on game trails and the shots are mostly 100yds or less. i don,t use speed to kill,but to be able to hit and kill more humanely at a little longer range.eastbank.
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Old September 24, 2015, 09:41 AM   #15
mehavey
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Hold neither high nor low.
Sight in for point blank impact of ±5" irrespective of actual distance within your 150yd hunting regime.
Ignore range in your sight picture at that point.

See Post #12
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Old September 24, 2015, 12:32 PM   #16
johnwilliamson062
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With my range as short as it is I want to do as Mhavey indicated with setting up for PBR less than 150yds.

I think there is some odd restriction on using hollowpoints for game hunting in Ohio. Not sure how much enforcement and I think the hornady style polymer tips are ok.

Peabody sports has a few boxes of the 325 grain hornady, so I am going to pick that up. Would like to give the 250 grain a try, but no one seems to carry it locally. Or online for that matter. I imagine the bullet is too light to shoot well.

I called field and stream in miamisburg to see what they had and they hung-up on me.

Calling around found something else funny. Several shops have rifles chambered in 45-70, but no ammunition.

Last edited by johnwilliamson062; September 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM.
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Old September 24, 2015, 01:32 PM   #17
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Be advised that the Hornady cases are shorter than regular 45-70 cases and you'll have trouble reloading them in regular dies if you save the cases for later on. You'll find that the 325 Hornady's recoil about the same as the Rem 405g bullets and probably won't shoot as well. Not one of my 45-70s shot them as well as the Remingtons. Good enough for deer hunting but just not the best by a good margine (I'm an accuracy nut besides a deer hunter).
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Old September 24, 2015, 03:03 PM   #18
briandg
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Most people will agree that the .44 magnum in a handgun will kill a deer with a well placed shot, right? The
45-70, in a 300 grain round, the standard, not high powered, is almost twice as fast and powerful as the .44 magnum. The standard rounds have nearly three times the energy.

IMO, any .45-70 rounds will effectively kill a deer that is well hit. The bleed out will be impressive. The only question will be the distance you are shooting at, and whether you can actually put a bullet where it belongs. If you can't make at least 9 of ten hits while practicing at your maximum expected distance, you should re-think your choice of weapon.

all IMO.
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Old September 24, 2015, 03:43 PM   #19
johnwilliamson062
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I'm not worried about the lethality of the rounds. I understand any of the factory loads will work well on an Ohio white tail well past 150 yards if I do my part. That is why I am looking at the lighter loads. I am really hopeful the 250 grain Hornady shoots well, even though I know that is unlikely. I considered a 44 mag barrel or getting a 460 SW carbine length barrel, but I saw no reason to give up the option of longer ranges for the same price.

Honestly, the last few deer I've taken were within 50 yards. Two ago I probably could have bayoneted. Partly because I have realized if I spend a couple days scouting for every day I plan to take in the woods I get the best results.

I meant I would need a larger target to sight in. Make sure I didn't gab one of the little shoot-n-see circles I have, but instead a large paper with grids.

Quote:
Hornady cases are shorter than regular 45-70 cases and you'll have trouble reloading them in regular dies if you save the cases for later on.
Are the hornady dies compatible with the Hornady cases? Other cases? If either the 250 or 300 shoot well it is probably what I will use as I will buy them to shoot when I need brass. I have been pretty happy with their SST slug performance and all the 9mm defensive rounds I have tried. i will probably work on casting a bullet in the long-term.
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Old September 24, 2015, 06:16 PM   #20
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I believe Hornady is now making die sets for their shortened cases. In fact, I'm sure of it. I just never bothered with them, other than shooting a box to see how they shot, because I had/have a lot of regular cases and I like to reload. The problem with the lighter bullets is the length to diameter ratio. The 250 grain bullets are just too short for the bore diameter. I know they do it in muzzle loaders but it's not the same with the rifle. The rifle has a throat and leade where the bullet has to leave the case, jump the gap, and enter the rifleing. Short just doesn't work as well here.
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Old September 25, 2015, 08:46 AM   #21
briandg
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Do you crimp your loads? if not, you don't need the shorter die. Just like .357/38 dies, you can use the shorter .38 for .357 by backing the die out and just setting up expanding and crimping as needed.

Another alternative would be to have a gunsmith grind the face off of the die by about the same amount that the brass differs.
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Old September 25, 2015, 08:57 AM   #22
mehavey
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Unless the OP is running black powder, crimping is required for consistent
ignition velocities -- even w/ fast/classic-big-case powders like 5744.


(Ask me how I know)
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Old September 25, 2015, 09:06 AM   #23
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Yes, I believe he did say that he is using BP, and you are right, that smokeless needs far more chamber pressure in the early stages of ignition to function properly. Even a slight inconsistency in the "pull" on the bullet can result in huge variations in ignition properties.

Remember when 296 wasn't available or sale? when it was released with dire warnings not to load with lead, and to use a heavy crimp, and to use only with heavy copper bullets with heavy crimp? There were genuine cases discussed that involved primers igniting only a fraction of the powder, and the powder popping out of the shell without building up enough pressure and heat to complete the ignition and burn cycle.

A big case like a 45-70, straight bore, light bullets, etc, could obviously cause problems for smokeless powder, especially with dense powders that only fill a fraction of the case. Maybe it would only be inconsistent burn and ignition, with resulting inaccuracy, maybe it would result in failure to completely discharge.
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Old September 25, 2015, 12:07 PM   #24
johnwilliamson062
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Definitely not using black powder to reload. Possibly some modern substitutes that burn cleaner and are not as corrosive.

reloading won't happen until after this season if ever.

I understand the problem with bullet length on a basic level. I have run into it with other cartridges. Won't know for sure until I try it though. Not intending to target shot. If I can reduce the trajectory extremes across my 150 yard PBR by more than the size the groups expand it will be a win for my purpose.

Even if I have to use some thumper to get it to shoot I can just use a Reactar recoil pad and shirt when sighting it in or try out different loads. Not the end of the world and firing one or 2 shots while hunting shouldn't be much of an issue.

Going to wait until the Hornady ammo gets here before I take it to the range at this point. Headed there this afternoon, but just taking some 22s and a cantankerous scatter gun back from Mossberg.
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Old September 26, 2015, 08:08 PM   #25
johnwilliamson062
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Order showed up from buds gun shop this morning. Faster than they quoted delivery. Really amazing to me since their delivery was also the cheapest.

The state changed the schedule of the range from Tues-Sat TO Wed-Sun, so I will be able to shoot tomorrow. Always 3-4 state employees there, usual a LEO or two. Such a great place to shoot.

Last edited by johnwilliamson062; September 26, 2015 at 08:22 PM.
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