The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 20, 2015, 08:18 AM   #1
kcub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2010
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 3,318
peep, ghost ring, or traditional irons?

Or any other non optical type, what's best?

Do any perform ok in low light?
kcub is offline  
Old November 20, 2015, 10:13 AM   #2
emcon5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 1999
Location: High Desert NV
Posts: 2,850
For what?
emcon5 is offline  
Old November 20, 2015, 10:25 AM   #3
cc-hangfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2014
Posts: 304
"What?" As in: what rifle, what distances, what application (hunting, long distance precision, 3 gun competition, recreational plinking, home defense, etc).
cc-hangfire is offline  
Old November 20, 2015, 10:51 AM   #4
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,867
Look at US military [iron] sights since ~1935 and there's clear pattern.
Aperture ~0.070" (normal), and 0.20" Fast engage/Dim light
mehavey is offline  
Old November 20, 2015, 12:03 PM   #5
JJ45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2015
Posts: 908
A ghost ring refers to a rear aperture that is a little wider (more open) than a normally constructed peep sight. If you remove the threaded disk from your garden variety Lyman or Williams receiver sights you will have a ghost ring to look through....

The reason its called a ghost ring is because you look THROUGH the rear peep and concentrate only on the front post/bead and the rear sight blurs out and disappears, hence the ghost. The eye is supposed to automatically center the post in the ring..... The term, I think, was coined by Col Jeff Cooper

The advantage of a peep is that it is faster to line up than regular front and rear iron sights. The human eye cannot focus on more than one object at once so it is more difficult to visually line up the rear sight with the front sight as well as the target (three objects) .....with a peep you just look through the rear ring at the front sight and just focus the front sight on the target.

They are precise enough for fairly long shots but there are a lot of guys that are quite good with regular irons.

The sights on the M1 Garand are the best ever mounted on an issue combat rifle and IMO are closer to true target sights than battle sights. The rear aperture on the M1 is too fine to be considered a true ghost ring although they are precise and very fast and effective.
JJ45 is offline  
Old November 20, 2015, 12:28 PM   #6
emcon5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 1999
Location: High Desert NV
Posts: 2,850
Quote:
The sights on the M1 Garand are the best ever mounted on an issue combat rifle and IMO are closer to true target sights than battle sights. The rear aperture on the M1 is too fine to be considered a true ghost ring although they are precise and very fast and effective.
The two aperture flip AR-15/M16 A2 rear sight is pretty good, it combines the small rear aperture found on earlier US rifles with a large rear for fast close shooting.

The same can be said for rear sights found on Enfield No4 and No5 rifles. Big rear aperture for fast close shooting, but a small precise peep for when you want it.
emcon5 is offline  
Old November 20, 2015, 04:59 PM   #7
doofus47
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2010
Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent
Posts: 2,483
I have an aperture on pretty much all my rifles.
I had a ghost ring on my muzzle loader when I was doing that.
I have a notch and post sight on my pellet guns. I'll start the kids out there.
__________________
I'm right about the metric system 3/4 of the time.
doofus47 is offline  
Old November 20, 2015, 06:38 PM   #8
Boncrayon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 24, 2008
Posts: 920
peep, ghost ring, or traditional irons?

My Remington O3-A3 has an aperture sight adjustable rear sight. Standard issue for snipers during WWII.
Boncrayon is offline  
Old November 20, 2015, 07:38 PM   #9
dahermit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
Quote:
peep, ghost ring, or traditional irons?
Or any other non optical type, what's best?

Do any perform ok in low light?
The correct name for a "peep" sight is "aperture" sight. They have long been considered to be superior to all other iron sights (non-glass lens), since at least WWII.

As to their effectiveness in dim light, I had a Williams aperture sight mounted on a rifle one hunting season, years ago. The sight had a large aperture and had a brass insert surrounding the aperture opening...it was supposed to be and intended for superior for dim-light shooting. Long story short, while in the river flats at about five in the afternoon, with light already failing, I sighted a deer (buck), about sixty yards away from me.

This is where that sight was supposed to come into its own. However, I had a very hard time getting a sight picture, and the deer had stepped forward, putting a tree between himself and me. I had a blow-down just in front of me and I figured if I stepped over it, I could get a shot at the buck, but figgured that when I did, he would hear me, stop and look in my direction giving me a standing shot. It worked like a charm...I stepped (hopped), over he stopped and looked in my direction, giving me nearly a broad-side shot. I fired and he dropped. But...I never used iron sights of any type from then on for deer hunting inasmuch as the most productive deer hunting is in the two twilight times of the day here in Michigan.

Scopes for the superior sighting in poor light. As much as I loved the aperture sights since my Basic Training with an M1 Garand, I reluctantly have to admit that they are not much good in the low-light because they cut down on the amount of light entering your eye, when you could use a whole lot more.
dahermit is offline  
Old November 20, 2015, 08:57 PM   #10
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,617
Like many things, the best thing for one use is not always the best thing for another, but may serve tolerably well.

The peep, or aperture sight is considered the most precise iron sight. Also the simplest to learn. I have been told this is because of the human eye's natural ability to find the center of a circle.

Tiny peep opening have proven very accurate, but too slow for hunting or combat. Larger peep openings (Ghost Ring) give up a little of their accuracy potential but are much quicker to use, and are more than good enough for hunting or combat as far as accuracy is concerned.

Traditional open sights, V or U or square notch rear and a front blade or post are fast, and accurate, but are slightly more difficult to learn to use well.

And none of the iron sights has any light gathering ability, so you have only your own natural ability to see as the light fades.

And this is the point where optics have their greatest value for hunting, their light gathering ability. There are situations where, you are within legal shooting hours, and can see a deer, but cannot see iron sights well enough, OR see the deer well enough to tell if it is a legal deer.

A light gathering scope in the exact same situation can likely tell you if it's a legal buck, or not, and give you a sight you can see at the same time.

Nothing is perfect for all possible situations.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old November 20, 2015, 08:57 PM   #11
kcub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2010
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 3,318
This is a trick question.

The correct answer is "ACOG".
kcub is offline  
Old November 22, 2015, 03:01 PM   #12
dgludwig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2005
Location: North central Ohio
Posts: 7,486
If you knew the answer to your "question", why ask it? Some responders spent (and apparently wasted) a lot of time and effort into providing you with some helpful and informed advice. What am I missing here?
__________________
ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED
...Aristotle
NRA Benefactor Life Member
dgludwig is offline  
Old November 24, 2015, 08:29 AM   #13
kcub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2010
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 3,318
Post 11 was not serious, sheesh.
kcub is offline  
Old November 24, 2015, 02:27 PM   #14
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
"...The correct answer is "ACOG"...." No, it isn't. Those are optical. snicker.
A ghost ring is a peep sight. Just has a larger aperture. Ghost rings are designed to function better in low light, but are primarily used at close range and have less precision.
There's more than one type of 'traditional iron' too. None of which are very good in low light.
Human eye's natural ability to find the center of a circle and inability to focus on more than one thing at a time.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old November 24, 2015, 11:37 PM   #15
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: In the valley above the plain
Posts: 13,390
I have aperture sights on a few rifles now.

I still haven't learned to shoot them well.

Overall, I do best with classic ('cheap') V-notch and U-notch sights with a round bead on the front blade (as opposed to a straight blade or post).
And, generally, I do better with flat-top rear sights, rather than buckhorn or semi-buckhorn.

But that's just me...
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.
FrankenMauser is offline  
Old November 25, 2015, 06:35 AM   #16
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,867
If you have superb eyes and that extra split second for full/careful
geometry alignment, the "open" notch/post sight can be very precise.

For the rest of us....
mehavey is offline  
Old November 25, 2015, 03:19 PM   #17
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,617
I would also point out that guns fitted with gold/brass beads or stripes on the sight (front, normally) have been found to "shoot off" (meaning shoot to a slightly different point of impact) when the light is at certain angles.

Not usually a big problem if you target is minute of Deer boiler room, but something that can affect precision shooting.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 05:32 AM   #18
JJ45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2015
Posts: 908
A flat top post is the best front sight for a rear peep. With a bead it is more difficult to line up for elevation precisely.

But some still prefer a bead. At close range it probably doesn't matter much.

In my experience, the wider the post the bigger my group size. The width of the rear aperture doesn't seem to matter as much as the width of the front post.

I have an 03-A3, the width of the front post is so narrow that it seems a good bump would bend it. This, undoubtedly, because the military wanted some long range capability afforded by a front sight that covers up less of the target.
JJ45 is offline  
Old November 27, 2015, 08:47 AM   #19
flashhole
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2005
Location: Owego, NY
Posts: 2,000
I went with Firesights. Very easy to pick up in the woods. Crappy picture but this is what it looks like. Just put the red dot between the greendots.

__________________
,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals.

Are you ready for civil war?
flashhole is offline  
Old November 27, 2015, 03:46 PM   #20
stubbicatt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2007
Posts: 1,707
Whichever works for you is the one to use.
stubbicatt is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.10205 seconds with 10 queries