Duplex Powder Loads

[Charmedlyfe]

Oh my god.....I actually agree with Mr. Irwin. The world will end any second....

[BigG]

I just had the same thought, Charmedlyfe.

[Mike Irwin]

Hey, Guys?

I've got this REALLY GREAT duplex load that you both should try...

You take a blasting cap and drop it down into the case, and then you pack in as much C4 as you can, and stick a bullet on top of it.

Now, when firing, and this is the most important thing for the COOL factor, is that you hold the gun at port arms with the action as close under your chin as you can get it (not so close that the ejecting brass if a semi-auto might hit you in the mouth and cip your teeth, lord knows we wouldn't want you to get hurt).

Apparently this load WILL cause some ringing in the ears, but fortunately you won't be anywhere near them...

[bullseyekp]

FIRST OFF, my user name is KP95OKC, not to be confused with KP95DAO.

I am a young lad but I do remember many history lessons that were based on a diversion from (implied) rules. I doubt any of you are actually qualified to make a blanket statement proclaiming that any kind of powder blending has absolutely devastating consequences. Therefore, maybe you should listen (think twice, post once) to a fellow member of the reloading community who has knowledge and experience that he is willing to share. If you do not want to learn, don't read the topic and don't post in objection to someone's personal actions.

If one understands the inherent risk associated with deviant behavior, the implications of such behavior are well deserved. Not once has KP95DAO recommended that any of you attempt to blend your own powder or touch off a round comprised of such an evil component. If any of you, particularly Mike Irwin and Charmedlyfe, has a problem with KP95DAO posting of his own personal experiences, take it up with him in a personal message.

If any of you want to question KP95DAO's credibility, I can speak up on that issue. He is my father. I have learned everything I know about firearms and reloading either directly or indirectly from him. I know for a fact that he has been reloading for over 30 years and I have witnessed first hand the positive benefits of his experimentation. I began reloading at the age of 12 (doesn't seem like 11 years ago) and I have never had anything dangerous result from my own reloads. Before I began reloading, I had been shooting my father's reloads since I was 2 & 1/2 years old. As far as I know, my father has never had any kind of catastrophic failure or disaster occur due to a reload. This from a man who has made barrels that shoot golf balls from a hybrid Dan Wesson .44 Mag.

Of course you are now thinking my opinion is somewhat biased, which it is. However, before you react, you should carefully consider the topic at hand and whether or not you are justified in what you post.

Happy Holidays!

KP95OKC

[Mike Irwin]

"I doubt any of you are actually qualified to make a blanket statement proclaiming that any kind of powder blending has absolutely devastating consequences."

Read again, young lad, no one's saying that.

What is being said is that the open sharing of such information in an uncontrolled way is NOT a responsible activity.

And, quite frankly, I could give you several powder combinations, using powders that are available now, that WOULD have the devastating consequences of which you speak.

Some combinations, in virtually ANY form, cause wildly unpredictable results and dangerous pressure transgressions.

"Therefore, maybe you should listen (think twice, post once) to a fellow member of the reloading community who has knowledge and experience that he is willing to share."

Perhaps you should do the same? You don't know squat about the qualifications or experiences of the people here.

Sharing experiences and information is one of the great benefits of TFL. But sharing information that could prove to be detrimental to other members is irresponsible.

"If one understands the inherent risk associated with deviant behavior, the implications of such behavior are well deserved. Not once has KP95OKC recommended that any of you attempt to blend your own powder or touch off a round comprised of such an evil component."

There's the rub... If one understands...
Your father's making an assumption that everyone here does understand the inherent risks that can be involved. Given that TFL includes the broad spectrum of experience in its members (if you look, you'll find quite a few "New to reloading" posts in the last few months), it's an irresponsible assumption to make.

Time for you to go back and re-read my latest message. My problem is with the posting of load specific information.

Posting information of this kind in an open forum is not only irresponsible, it could also be dangerous to someone who might try it, and use different components.

Simply swapping components or the firearm can take such a load from safe to unsafe with no transition inbetween.

As I alluded, but didn't directly say (which I should have), duplexing, by its very nature is a component specific, gun specific, activity.

As I noted, the serious duplexers I know will not share this type of information with just anyone, for they know the inherent risks involved.

They also, when changing components, begin the development process all over again, because they cannot predict what a change in components will do to the loads that they have developed.

I'm glad you're in your father's corner. That's exactly where you should be.

But recognize that not everyone has your father's experience, has access to the components that he uses (he didn't even list the components that he uses), nor do they have the experience that your father apparently has.

As I've continually stressed, without those things factored in, the sharing of such information is irresponsible, and I renew my call for the moderator to remove load specific information from the posts.

[Clark]

There is an old gunsmith that keeps telling me I am ready to start duplexing loads.

I think that mixing Bullseye, Unique, and 2400 will not get a 454 going as fast as H110.

Likewise, I don't think I can get much more out of 9x19 than I am already with Power Pistol.

I am not afraid of blowing up guns. I sometimes get a trunk full of beater guns at a gun show to blow up. I am just afraid of waisting my time. Load work ups with a single powder variable take a very long time now.

On the 45-70: 40 gr IMR4895 with a 405 gr is a Trapdoor load that has too much kick for the Handi Rifle. 30 gr is much easier on the shoulder, and is still very accurate.

[Keith J]

Unless you have a ballistics lab, I doubt you will make any headway as all you can see are the peak pressures. Its not the peak pressure that gives the performance but the integral of the pressure curve as the bullet is traversing the bore.

It was covered in an American Rifleman and using piezo instrumented test guns, the pressure curves of duplex were anything but predictable.

The gun may be fine once, twice or 3000 times but there's always next time. Golden BB's, gotta watch out for them.

[bullseyekp]

Mike,

You say I don't know squat about the qualifications or the experiences of members of the forum, what are you referencing? I don't believe I have wrongly questioned anyone's qualifications or experiences. I will point out that several people have said things that imply that blending powders is dangerous and it should never be done. "I condemn either practice" and "Don't try this at home!" are two examples. If a new reloader were to read this and nothing else, he would not know that blending powders is an alternative method to achieving desired ballistics.

"And, quite frankly, I could give you several powder combinations, using powders that are available now, that WOULD have the devastating consequences of which you speak.

Some combinations, in virtually ANY form, cause wildly unpredictable results and dangerous pressure transgressions."

You mean I can't substitute 30.4 grains of AA#2 and 13.1 grains of Bullseye for 43.5 grains of IMR 4064 in my .308? Get real! I am quite aware that some powder combinations have unpredictable results and dangerous pressures. Any reloader should know that; if not, he/she should not be reloading (or should be culled from the reloading fraternity by becoming a recipient of a Darwin Award.)

Now, I do agree that some on the board do not have the requisite experience to dabble in such mischief. Heck, I haven't taken the time to learn how to blend powders, nor have I learned how to conduct but a few of the many zillions of reloading experiments that my father does. However, that doens't mean that I don't want to learn. Heck, I wish I could interpret the hundreds of load data sheets that my father has amassed over the years so I could repeat some of his experiments. If someone on the board wants to learn how to do something, why not PROPERLY teach them. Even if forum members don't wish to attmept to blend powders, duplex, etc., who's to say that they aren't interested in the technique/process. Like DAVID NANCARROW said, "Nice to know it can be done if it ever came down to having no choice."

Also, less experienced reloaders on the forum have been warned numerous times (on TFL and in manuals) that blending and duplexing have inherent risks. If a reloader is stupid enough not to research the topic and mitigate those risks, then his actions are soley his responsibility. If any new reloaders do not realize this, they probably should not be reloading.

BTW, I am not advocating the posting of particular load data, UNLESS the issues surrounding such data are clearly documented before the data is shared. Also, Mr. Irwin, my above statements are not personal attacks nor are they meant to provoke a shouting match. I just wanted to clarify a few things.

[C.R.Sam]

Go gently friend. There are total newbies to the shooting and reloading world on this board. And at the other end of the spectrum there are at least six commercial ammunition manufacturers who also contribute.

Plus factory reps, gunwriters, historians etc. A lot of depth here.

Point is, please do not advocate procedures that are not available in published data. Email correspondance with those who display an interest, but not on an open forum.

Sam, walk down and do em all.

[Art Eatman]

KP95OKC: Let's try again, along the lines of what C.R.Sam and Mike said. There are a number of folks who just might NOT read disclaimers about hazards, or don't really worry about the "small stuff". (After all, bolt guns have a big safety factor built in, right?)

It is one thing to speak of accomplishments that have been created during years of experimentation. It is something else to put yourself in a position of particular advocacy.

I started reloading in the summer of 1950. I ain't no guru, but I've read enough, done enough, to have a feel for the subject.

You speak of "mixing" powders. I submit that somebody else's notion of the mixing process might well be different--and could create some extreme hazard. I rather doubt you want that.

And that's the "why" of what folks are trying to tell you.

Art

[Mike Irwin]

What are you referencing?

"I doubt any of you are actually qualified..."

Well, that, for one. You don't know who might be here, or what their qualifications are. But, FYI, there are some industry people here occasionally.

"You mean I can't substitute 30.4 grains of AA#2 and 13.1 grains of Bullseye for 43.5 grains of IMR 4064 in my .308?"

What part of SOME combinations don't you understand? Some doesn't mean all. Just because you're struck on one doesn't mean the next one you try won't be one of the bad ones.

"I am quite aware that some powder combinations have unpredictable results and dangerous pressures. Any reloader should know that.."

I guess that's why virtually every reloading manual on the market cautions AGAINST combining different types of powders in the same load?

Let's see what Hornady says about it, from their 4th edition, page 53, rule 10:

Never mix two different powders or use two powders in a case (a duplex load). Such mixtures can produce unpredictable results and extremely high pressures

Guess Hornady doesn't know what they're talking about?

Or are they addressing reloaders of ALL levels?

People who have a lot of reloading experience?

People who don't have so much?

People who are just cracking a reloading manual for the first time?

Hey, know what? I've just described the clientel here on TFL!

Now that we both agree on that, maybe you'll take your own advice to read twice, post once, and see that I'm not in-hand condemning the practice of duplexing, but that I'm simply NOT comfortable with specific load information being discussed on the board?

What is safe in your gun with your components may well NOT be safe in someone else's gun with their components.

What is safe procedure for you may well NOT be safe procedure for others.

What part of that don't you comprehend? Is it really so difficult to grasp that?

[bullseyekp]

Nevermind. :barf:

It was not my intention to get into a pi$$ing match over this or that. What a waste of time.

[C.R.Sam]

There was a young lad named Fender
Who ran some Bullseye through a blender.
He figured it oughtter
Make it burn hotter.
Now he is fingerless and tender.

S

[Art Eatman]

Enough for now, okay?

Any further posts would be nothing more than a desire to have the last word, and there is just no point to that.

Art

[Dennis]

Well, it seems the subject has run its course for now.

Therefore, I'm closing this thread, for now.