|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
March 10, 2011, 08:39 AM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 4,114
|
The links which mavracer posted on the tests for the 9mm and the 40 S&W are worth taking a look at and studying some. I believe that when you do that a few points that are relevant to this discussion come through.
One: about 20 years ago the FBI established a protocol that jhp ammo should expand and penetrate to between 12-14" in 10% ballistic gelatin for them to consider it useful to them. Ammo manufacturers worked hard to acheive that. So you will note that the bulk of ammo from 9mm to 45acp tested in the workshops posted does just that irregardless of caliber or bullet weight. The rounds that do not and penetrate further tend to be where the hollowpoint clogged and the ammo acted as ball does. This is useful information. The rounds that were heavier tended to penetrate an inch or so more. A good deal of energy is transferred through expansion. When the round does not expand, or not fully expand, that energy is available and used most often in penetration. Quality jhp ammo of today tends to penetrate and expand to 12-14" in ballistic gelatin no matter what caliber of bullet weight. tipoc |
March 10, 2011, 09:04 AM | #27 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: midwest
Posts: 4,209
|
you say you don't equate kenetic energy to stopping power and yet you wield it like a sword.proclaiming the 124's superiority because of it.
my arguement that momentum had a more prolific effect is substantiated by the actual tests. Just because you state opinion as fact IE Quote:
Quote:
http://le.atk.com/pdf/PortlandWoundBallisticReport1.pdf
__________________
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 Quote:
|
|||
March 10, 2011, 07:51 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 30, 2011
Location: New England
Posts: 1,449
|
JCP when I was referring to the 147 standard being similar to the 124 +p in performance I wasn't refering to velocity or KE. Testing of Winchester Ranger, Fed HST, and Speer GD showed better penetration, (not much better,) with the 147 grain 9mm and similar expansion (all the 9mm 147 & 124+p or +P+ were .62 and up, though one +P+ was .70.)
The Winchester Ranger 147 grain 9mm penetrated better then the +p and the 357 Sig. The 357 sig expanded to .63 and the 147 grain 9mm expanded to .62. Pretty darn close. The 9mm 147 grain also penetrated better then the 40 S&W, but the 40 S&W expanded to .68. |
March 10, 2011, 09:30 PM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Posts: 171
|
While 147 grain JHP 9mm loads have been suspect in the past, the HST and the most updated versions of its competitors now perform well in terms of expansion reliability, and in general I personally prefer heavier bullets for their edge in penetrating soft, squishy things (e.g. bad guys). In the case of two specific loads (124 and 147 grain HST) in a specific gun, however, I would recommend shooting both to find out which works better for you in terms of point of impact, recoil, etc. because both should be pretty close in effectiveness overall.
|
March 11, 2011, 07:28 AM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,324
|
math vs common sense (and what's actually in the chamber)
I note that regardless of the 147g performance in labratory testing, the 115--127g .355" projectiles continue to be the ones issued, whether in the 9x19 or 357 SIG.
When even the most effective 147g projectile gets launched in the 9x19, its velocity is of the 38 Special variety. Think about the clean-sheet 357 SIG cartridge, designed from its inception with the 125g weight in mind. Any heavier projectile could have been chosen during its development, but those involved picked the bullet weight they expected to be the most effective for stopping people. Static testing in the laboratory can prove varied concepts, but active testing on people provides us significant proofs.
__________________
. "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo" |
March 11, 2011, 10:26 AM | #31 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: midwest
Posts: 4,209
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
look 30 years ago 115 Silver tips were concidered one of the best 9mm loads one failed and started all this ammo testing.they go to the lab redesign and then send it out on the street. 20 years ago 147gr 9mm didn't expand consistantly they went to the lab and redesigned it.They work now as proved in the lab and on the street. Is the 147 better than the 124 for the true answer to that I'm going to need to know the exact bullet path through Mr Badguy so I know weather I want 1" more penatration or is that temporary cavity going to tear open that one vessel. Given the fact that no one can tell me that and Common Sense tells me 99.9% of the time it's not gonna matter. I'll stick with what works in the gun and hits POA.
__________________
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 Quote:
Last edited by mavracer; March 11, 2011 at 10:44 AM. |
|||||
March 11, 2011, 12:47 PM | #32 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 29, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 358
|
Quote:
I did a quick statistical analysis on a data set and came up with the averages of both 124 grain and 147 grain penetration. When I took the percent differences between the 2, I came out with 11.55%. Before I took the average, I also did the high and low value percent difference between the 124 and 147 and came up with basically the same 17% difference that I got with the mass percent difference. So you can see that its the inertia of the heavier mass 147 grain that allows it to penetrate a little further, not momentum. If it was in fact momentum, the 2% figure would have reared its head, which it did not. So again, the momentum is negligible in this case because momentum is dependent on velocity. And never did I say KE was the end all be all data point, but it sure does let you know how much potential the bullet has at creating damage and stopping someone. Something I find rather important in my short barrel CC pistol. |
|
March 11, 2011, 02:46 PM | #33 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 5, 2007
Posts: 397
|
Physics wise you guys lost me a long time ago in this conversation. I would like to ask which weight bullet are most fixed sighted 9mm sighted for? POI=POA
|
March 11, 2011, 03:35 PM | #34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 31, 2010
Posts: 327
|
I like the 147 for medium to full size autos and the 124 for subcompacts.
__________________
McLovin? Yeah. Great name. It is, it just rolls off the tongue. 'Sounds like a sexy hamburger! |
March 11, 2011, 04:36 PM | #35 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 15, 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,531
|
Shoot the load that you can shoot more accurately...the rest is purely academic. Meaning that it doesn't matter. As long as you use newer designed bullets, they both expand fine.
I like the 147s because my gun shoots them better (more accurately and slightly less recoil impulse). 147s are NOT too heavy...they come out of the muzzle of my gun just fine.
__________________
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak. |
March 11, 2011, 04:47 PM | #36 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 3, 2009
Location: NC
Posts: 1,244
|
Quote:
__________________
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated". Ernest Hemingway Protect our 2nd Amendment Rights -- Join the NRA |
|
March 11, 2011, 05:10 PM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 3, 2011
Location: Vernon AZ
Posts: 1,195
|
bullet performance
I am assuming that you are looking for a defense load. From a practical performance stand point any high quality JHP bullet will work.
The most important issue is what happens after you defend yourself. That being the case you should probably use the same bullet carried by your local law enforcement. This prevents an over zealous assistant Attorney General from protraying your bullet selection as a premediated act to commit murder. Yes it happens in AZ. |
March 11, 2011, 09:45 PM | #38 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 4,114
|
Quote:
I have a couple of H-Powers which are set for the 124 while a CZ75 I have seems to be set for the 115. Shoot some of each weight to see how they work in your gun. tipoc |
|
March 12, 2011, 06:33 AM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,324
|
logic has convinced me
I will no longer advocate for the 124g weight, the one many +P loads and the 357 SIG bring into the vaunted 357 Magnum range.
I will instead advocate for the 147g, the one that gets near the 158g +P 38.
__________________
. "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo" |
March 12, 2011, 08:31 AM | #40 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: midwest
Posts: 4,209
|
Quote:
yes inertia is the principle at work here but since we are talking about a object in motion being stopped, it is most certainly it's momentum which must be stopped. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Try reading much of the information here http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/ you may well get a better grasp of what energy levels must be in order to start having a real effect. and even at that there is not a point that it starts to happen.you must have a pretty drastic change in the amount of energy, before the measured results would be signifigant. IE it doesn't happen when going from a light 9mm to a heavy 9mm(100 ft.lbs.) but it will be a measurable difference when going from a heavy 9mm or 38+p to a light 357magnum where you double the energy from near 300 to over 600. Now you want to argue that a full tilt 357 is better than the 147 9mm. Well then I'm inclined to agree because not only does it have a signifigant energy advantage but a good edge in momentum too.
__________________
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 Quote:
Last edited by mavracer; March 12, 2011 at 09:07 AM. Reason: add comment |
|||||
March 12, 2011, 11:28 AM | #41 |
Member
Join Date: March 16, 2008
Posts: 31
|
I never understood the point of a comparatively small/medium sized bullet going slow being better than one going another 300fps faster, as it was intended.
If you want to shoot a .38 Special, by all means, go ahead, but there is a reason they came out with a .357 Magnum and it's top load isn't all that far off from a 124+P 9mm (when being fired from a short barrel of course...) |
March 12, 2011, 02:07 PM | #42 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: midwest
Posts: 4,209
|
I don't understand why when you loose 200fps(far more accurate # and less than 20%) while gaining 20% more mass in the process, is somehow an important amount. but giving up the same nearly 20% of velocity with the same weight bullet is written off as nothing cause it's about the same.
__________________
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 Quote:
|
|
March 12, 2011, 02:17 PM | #43 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 12, 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 5,457
|
If the 147 meets or exceeds the old .38 FBI load, from 4" or longer barrels, it will be plenty. With today's bullets there is every indication that it will do just that. I guess it's a matter of whether you favor expansion or penetration.
My experience is that handguns do their work by knocking holes through stuff that matters. If the results aren't coming fast enough to suit you, that 'Reapply' switch right under your finger will bring about the desired result.
__________________
People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice. |
March 13, 2011, 07:36 AM | #44 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 2,169
|
Energy is important because it gives you how much "oomf" the bullet has behind it to do the work that the bullet is designed to do. If the bullet is a fast expander, more energy will help it expand more.....if the bullet is a deep penetrator, more energy will help it penetrate deeper.
Energy is an important thing....but it's not the only thing....
__________________
Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0...... |
January 27, 2013, 06:50 PM | #45 | |
Member
Join Date: January 16, 2011
Posts: 74
|
Quote:
|
|
January 27, 2013, 07:35 PM | #46 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Posts: 540
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Either weight is fine. I generally 'default' to heavy-for-caliber JHPs regardless of caliber. That means 147s for the 9, 180s for the .40/10mm, and 230s for the .45. OTOH, if all I had was premium 9mm 124 gr JHPs, I'd carry them, too and feel just fine about it.
__________________
QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION |
||||
January 27, 2013, 07:35 PM | #47 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 4,114
|
The post you're asking about is almost 2 years old.
tipoc |
January 27, 2013, 07:58 PM | #48 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Posts: 540
|
ha ha ha
Let's hope that the OP has made a decision by now.
__________________
QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION |
January 27, 2013, 09:32 PM | #49 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 2,169
|
Quote:
__________________
Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0...... |
|
January 28, 2013, 03:21 PM | #50 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 20, 2009
Posts: 390
|
Both good rounds. I like mid-weight +P or +P+ roundsin general. Good balance of penetration and expansion in the 124gr. +P. But I have 147gr. HST's in non +P and +P. They actually open up about the same as the 124's and usually go a little deeper. Old advice but I would see which feed through my gun the best and was the most accurate. Their really is no bad choice here and I would carry the 124 +P's or either of the 147gr. loads without a worry. The HST is a superb load in any caliber.
|
|
|