460 Rowland 1911 q's

HiBC · October 9, 2011, 03:02 PM

Brother bought a Clark bbl,slide,and Caspian frame.Basic slide/frame fitting is doone by Clark.It has a comp.I fitted small parts,sights,etc.

It has a 24 lb spring in it.The slide locks open on the last shot,as it should.
At what point is the increased spring rate more destructive?I am thinking about the forward impact of the slide.Would it be better to reduce spring,?

Feeding.I have tried either a Wilson or Brown mag.It has the modern design feed lipsBoth handloads (260 gr Long Colt bullets with large meplat)and Buffalo Bore(RN flatpoint,smaller meplat)feed out low,and stop at the ramp too often.These are acheiving 1200 fps+.(Its not my project,I'm just trying to make it work)

I am wondering if the ideal mag might be the Colt mag,with the tapered lips,to let the round come up easier.Any recipe suggestions,like "Colt mag,wolfe spring,Pachmeyer follower" would be appreciated.

I am not real 1911 experienced,this is an education.

Hunter Customs · October 9, 2011, 09:43 PM

Yes you will get more forward battering from the 24 pound recoil spring.

If it has not already been done I would consider installing a square bottom firing pin stop and increase the main spring to a 25 pound unit.
Doing these two things you should be able to reduce the recoil spring down to a 20 pound spring especially when using a compensator.

If the slide speed seems to violent with the above set-up you will have to increase your weight on your recoil spring and just accept the increased forward battering of the gun.
That's one of the trade offs when you magnumize a 1911.

The 460 Rowland is a much better choice in a revolver. With a revolver you can take full advantage of the extra case length of the 460 Rowland, which you really can't do in a 1911 platform.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

HiBC · October 10, 2011, 02:18 AM

Thanks,Bob.I'm just helping out my brother.Its his project.I'd like to hand it to him working.
He and I and my former spouse had a little bear problem at the corner of the Nowitna and Yukon Rivers..Since then a bear gun seems like a thing to have.
He is not afraid to try something new for firearms.Its all fun.

I don't think I'll build one for myself,just want to do my best for him.

On the magazines,Do you think the most reliable might be 7 rd colt tubes,Wolfe Springs,Pach follower?Also,someone,maybe McCormic,makes a "Classic" which may have the old school lips.What do you think?

In Midway,there is an alleged copper jacket Magtech 230 gr bullet shaped like a 200 gr H+G SWC.That may be a winner if its not plated.

Scorch · October 10, 2011, 11:34 AM

Does the pistol have a compensator on it? Years ago I built a few bowling pin guns and used heavy slide extension compensators, and I was amazed at how much they slowed down the cycling. Something like these
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7...T-BUSHING-COMP

Also, as Hunter Custome said, a square bottom firing pin retainer and stiffer mainspring should help.

Bob Hunter, any comments? Custom 1911s are your cup o' tea.

As far as mags go, the McCormick mags seem to be a bit thin and will bulge slightly when full loaded. Wilson mags seem to be a bit more reliable IME. Colt mags might eliminate the snubbing problem as they will feed a little higher.

HiBC · October 11, 2011, 03:40 AM

Thanks ,both of you!!Yes,Scorch,kit does have a comp on the bbl.Its Clark's setup.I believe the gas hitting the comp retards the bbl going rearward.
Clark says the comp is mandatory with his setup.It is Clark ramped.

I,myself,get impatient with folks who ask my advise,then argue!!I do not mean to do that,but I have a question.

I understand the idea behind the squared off firing pin retainer,and stiffer spring.I am sure it would retard unlocking.I have even looked at the EGW plate that is made that way.

My concern:John Moses designed the hammer pin and the holes in the frame to pivot the hammer around.Ultimately,the unlocking delay is translated into increased loads on the hammer pin,and the holes in the frame for the pin.
There is a little more,moving the contact point down increases the rearward acceleration of the hammer,etc.

I knew of this,but am pondering unintended consequences..

Of course,JMB never intended the 1911 to get 1200 fps with a 260 gr bullet.

There aint no free lunch!!

Jim Watson · October 11, 2011, 06:15 AM

Actually, Mr Browning designed the gun with a small radius firing pin stop. Not completely square but a lot smaller than production run pistols. The Army wanted it to be easier to rack the slide by a cavalryman with his hands full of horse.

I rounded off the corner of my EGW stop just enough so the hard metal would not gouge the hammer face. I could not see it made much difference with standard loads, but every little bit will help when you go to magnumize one.

drail · October 11, 2011, 07:56 AM

The stop will not "gouge" the hammer face. The hammer is considerably harder than the stop. If you radius the bottom of the stop more than just breaking the corner then you are giving up the advantage the square bottom corner gave you.

Hunter Customs · October 11, 2011, 08:23 AM

Jim is correct and I also break or radius the edge of the square bottom firing pin stop.
I use a 0.062 radius.
Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

Hunter Customs · October 11, 2011, 08:48 AM

Quote:

On the magazines,Do you think the most reliable might be 7 rd colt tubes,Wolfe Springs,Pach follower?Also,someone,maybe McCormic,makes a "Classic" which may have the old school lips.What do you think?

When you are refering to the old school lips I assume you are talking about mag bodies where the lips widen at the front, I call these V shaped.
The mag bodies with the V shaped lips will release the cartridge a little sooner and in most cases will enhance feeding.
That being said, if you use that type of mag body I would use followers that have the tit on them like the original followers had to keep the last round from jumping forward.
However I would not use that tpye of follower in the new style mag bodies where the feed lips run equal distance apart until the round is released (parallel lips).
Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

RickB · October 11, 2011, 12:11 PM

Quote:

I rounded off the corner of my EGW stop just enough so the hard metal would not gouge the hammer face. I could not see it made much difference with standard loads, but every little bit will help when you go to magnumize one.

I'm fiddling with a .45 Super conversion, or my version of such a conversion anyway, and it consists of a 25# mainspring, 22# recoil spring, and reduced-radius firing pin stop. My first test was shooting a few of my usual, 200@840, .45 ACP competition loads, and ejection was so weak I had a stovepipe on the last round. That was encouraging, as the whole point of the exercise is to slow the slide. Next, I went to .45 ACP +P power levels, and the gun ran great, throwing the brass about as far as it usually does when set up for the relatively wimpy competition loads. I need to get some Super brass to go further up the power ladder. I was using a Check-Mate mag with tapered feedlips, and was concerned with double-feeds, as I know the tapered-lip design does not retain rounds as well as parallel designs, but I didn't have any problems. Upping velocity another 200fps might change things, though.

October 9, 2011, 03:02 PM	#1
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	460 Rowland 1911 q's Brother bought a Clark bbl,slide,and Caspian frame.Basic slide/frame fitting is doone by Clark.It has a comp.I fitted small parts,sights,etc. It has a 24 lb spring in it.The slide locks open on the last shot,as it should. At what point is the increased spring rate more destructive?I am thinking about the forward impact of the slide.Would it be better to reduce spring,? Feeding.I have tried either a Wilson or Brown mag.It has the modern design feed lipsBoth handloads (260 gr Long Colt bullets with large meplat)and Buffalo Bore(RN flatpoint,smaller meplat)feed out low,and stop at the ramp too often.These are acheiving 1200 fps+.(Its not my project,I'm just trying to make it work) I am wondering if the ideal mag might be the Colt mag,with the tapered lips,to let the round come up easier.Any recipe suggestions,like "Colt mag,wolfe spring,Pachmeyer follower" would be appreciated. I am not real 1911 experienced,this is an education.

October 10, 2011, 11:34 AM	#4
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Does the pistol have a compensator on it? Years ago I built a few bowling pin guns and used heavy slide extension compensators, and I was amazed at how much they slowed down the cycling. Something like these http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7...T-BUSHING-COMP Also, as Hunter Custome said, a square bottom firing pin retainer and stiffer mainspring should help. Bob Hunter, any comments? Custom 1911s are your cup o' tea. As far as mags go, the McCormick mags seem to be a bit thin and will bulge slightly when full loaded. Wilson mags seem to be a bit more reliable IME. Colt mags might eliminate the snubbing problem as they will feed a little higher. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services Last edited by Scorch; October 10, 2011 at 11:40 AM.

October 9, 2011, 09:43 PM	#2
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	Yes you will get more forward battering from the 24 pound recoil spring. If it has not already been done I would consider installing a square bottom firing pin stop and increase the main spring to a 25 pound unit. Doing these two things you should be able to reduce the recoil spring down to a 20 pound spring especially when using a compensator. If the slide speed seems to violent with the above set-up you will have to increase your weight on your recoil spring and just accept the increased forward battering of the gun. That's one of the trade offs when you magnumize a 1911. The 460 Rowland is a much better choice in a revolver. With a revolver you can take full advantage of the extra case length of the 460 Rowland, which you really can't do in a 1911 platform. Best Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

October 10, 2011, 02:18 AM	#3
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Thanks,Bob.I'm just helping out my brother.Its his project.I'd like to hand it to him working. He and I and my former spouse had a little bear problem at the corner of the Nowitna and Yukon Rivers..Since then a bear gun seems like a thing to have. He is not afraid to try something new for firearms.Its all fun. I don't think I'll build one for myself,just want to do my best for him. On the magazines,Do you think the most reliable might be 7 rd colt tubes,Wolfe Springs,Pach follower?Also,someone,maybe McCormic,makes a "Classic" which may have the old school lips.What do you think? In Midway,there is an alleged copper jacket Magtech 230 gr bullet shaped like a 200 gr H+G SWC.That may be a winner if its not plated.

October 11, 2011, 03:40 AM	#5
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Thanks ,both of you!!Yes,Scorch,kit does have a comp on the bbl.Its Clark's setup.I believe the gas hitting the comp retards the bbl going rearward. Clark says the comp is mandatory with his setup.It is Clark ramped. I,myself,get impatient with folks who ask my advise,then argue!!I do not mean to do that,but I have a question. I understand the idea behind the squared off firing pin retainer,and stiffer spring.I am sure it would retard unlocking.I have even looked at the EGW plate that is made that way. My concern:John Moses designed the hammer pin and the holes in the frame to pivot the hammer around.Ultimately,the unlocking delay is translated into increased loads on the hammer pin,and the holes in the frame for the pin. There is a little more,moving the contact point down increases the rearward acceleration of the hammer,etc. I knew of this,but am pondering unintended consequences.. Of course,JMB never intended the 1911 to get 1200 fps with a 260 gr bullet. There aint no free lunch!!

October 11, 2011, 06:15 AM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,536	Actually, Mr Browning designed the gun with a small radius firing pin stop. Not completely square but a lot smaller than production run pistols. The Army wanted it to be easier to rack the slide by a cavalryman with his hands full of horse. I rounded off the corner of my EGW stop just enough so the hard metal would not gouge the hammer face. I could not see it made much difference with standard loads, but every little bit will help when you go to magnumize one.

October 11, 2011, 07:56 AM	#7
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	The stop will not "gouge" the hammer face. The hammer is considerably harder than the stop. If you radius the bottom of the stop more than just breaking the corner then you are giving up the advantage the square bottom corner gave you.

October 11, 2011, 08:23 AM	#8
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	Jim is correct and I also break or radius the edge of the square bottom firing pin stop. I use a 0.062 radius. Best Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com