In the market for a shooting jacket

Ervin · November 12, 2010, 02:49 PM

I hoped you guys would know what brand this jacket is (4:37)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8eXrsxwGVk

are hasty slings outlawed in the standing or something? I see no one using one

Bones · November 12, 2010, 03:29 PM

Got my, bought used with some other equipment.

Sometimes the matches I go to look like "Flea Markets" with all the vendors selling used equipment..

kraigwy · November 12, 2010, 03:44 PM

Quote:

are hasty slings outlawed in the standing or something? I see no one using one

Slings are not allowed in Standing in NRA High Power nor CMP GSM Vintage Military Rifle Games.

They are also not allowed in NRA and ISU Small Bore.

In my 35 years of competition shooting I found that slings just get in the way in the standing position.

Use to be you had to have the sling in the parade position in off hand. Now they can be taken off the rifle.

Looking at the video you'll notice some had the slings attached and loose. That is something you need to watch. Its hard enough shooting offhand without the loose sling flowing in the breeze disturbing your rifle.

That was a good video of a GSM match. Most had some pretty solid postions. Notice the bolt gun shooters; you don't take the rifle out of your shoulder while working the bolt.

CMP sells shooting coats as well as mats. I use to use a heavy leather coat but pretty much went to a straigh cloth coat with the rubber on the shoulder and elbows. Same with a glove. If you get a glove get one with the rubber pads. They help keep your non shooting hand from sliding up and down on the stock.

The CMP has GSM Vintage Rifle clinics scattered across the country taught by CMP GSM Master Instructors. I higly recommend everyone attend one if interested in GSM Games or HP.

Ervin · November 12, 2010, 05:00 PM

thanks for the info.
I may be mistaken, but I havent seen civilians shoot from the kneeling...ever.
They're either shooting more shots in the standing or prone. Unless its a service rifle match with a course of fire that resembles that one of the USMC entirely.

Casimer · November 12, 2010, 05:12 PM

The specific Jacket at 4:37 looks like a Creedmoor lite cordora 'heavy coat' w/o a hardback and w/ vents.

e.g. http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store...cat=465&page=1

kraigwy · November 12, 2010, 05:38 PM

There are TWO courses of fire for the GSM (Garand, Springfield, Vintange Military) matches.

Course A:

Sighting: 200 yards slow fire, any position, 5 shots
First: 200 yards slow fire prone 10 shots (you are given 15 min. to fire the 5 sighters and 10 shots for record)
Second: 200 yards Rapide fire prone from standing 10 shots, 80 Seconds (this requires a reload, 2 & 8 for the garand, 5 & 5 for bolt guns)
Third: 200 yards Slow fire Standing 10 shots in 10 minutes

Course B:

Sighting: 200 yards slow any position 5 shots
First: 200 yards Slow fire prone, (againg 25 min for sighting and prone)
Second: 200 yards Rapid, prone from standing, 10 shots 80 sec.
Third 200 yards Rapid, Sitting or Kneeling, from standing 10 shots in 70 seconds.
Fourth: 200 yards slow fire standing. 10 shots in 10 minutes.

Targets for both is the 200 Yards SR target. The match can be fired at 100 yards instead of 200, using the SR1 target (which is the 200 yard target reduced to 100 yards).

You will note that the third phase in course B allows for Sitting or Kneeling. Kneeling is not use much because it isn't as stable as the setting positon.

Hope this helps.

Casimer · November 12, 2010, 07:31 PM

Quote:

You will note that the third phase in course B allows for Sitting or Kneeling.

There are a handful of guys who kneel in my region, and I think that for every one of them it's due to back problems or some such. So it's nice to have as an option, because it enables some people to compete who probably wouldn't otherwise.

kraigwy · November 12, 2010, 10:05 PM

That's a coaching problem, any good coach would be able to find a setting position modification that would fit just about anyone.

That was one of my specialties, getting handicapped people into a legal position that would fit anyone.

Ervin · November 16, 2010, 06:32 AM

The older generation of Marines opted to alot of open legged sitting positions when dealing with the 1903 Springfield. But yes there is alot of variations to the sitting.

Thanks for clearing all that up. Would you happen to know if there is an official NRA centerfire target that is less than 12in wide at 200yds?
I wasnt to sure, but I heard of 8-10in targets being used

yep it was just a basic cloth coat
http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store...cat=249&page=1

kraigwy · November 16, 2010, 01:09 PM

Don't know about 200 yard targets being less then 12 inches. But they have reduces NRA targets designed for 100 yard reduced matchs.

SR1 for 200 yard reduced for 100 yards
SR21 for 300 yard reduced for 100 yards
MR1 for 600 yard reduced for 100 yards

Here is a web site where you can down load an print many targets off your printer on 8.5 X 11 paper.

http://dotclue.org/targets

Ervin · November 19, 2010, 03:40 PM

On the kneeling note:
I taught about it and, the fact that its not a stable enough position is only half of the truth. The kneeling is a one shot platform, with bigger rifles, it will take more than 7 seconds to settle back into a steady one. Rate of fire simply isnt its strength.

I still think that being allowed to shoot at a 12in bullseye from the 200 and 300 in prone slow fire is a freebie (in certain matches, not all)
300 sitting slow fire is not too challenging, its just too early to get into the prone based on the stuff Ive been doing.

any toughts on that creedmoor cloth coath?

I forget where I read it but, someone was saying that wearing extra layers and raising your body temperature would slow down the pulse and heart beats, and even lengthen the respiratory pause.

I do plan on wearing a layer under the cloth coat to cushion the rifle a bit better...but there's something that sounds too good to be true or entirely wrong about this theory. Usually the hotter you get, the more you breathe and the quicker you get tired. Unneccesary heat is also a huge distraction to your focus.

kraigwy · November 19, 2010, 05:49 PM

Kneeling like anything else can be a stable positon if done right. This is where a good coach comes in. If you can't shoot a rapid fire string in kneeling, or any other position there is something wrong with the position.

A natural point of aim should allow you to rock back into position for the next shot regardless of position.

I can attest to the fact that shooting with a heavy coat, and layers of sweat shirts raise the body temp. Shoot a lot of matches in 100 degree temps with 80+ humity, and I'm sure my body temp went up, but it didn't help my shooting.

We use to soak down the sweat****s and rap the coat in ice before shooting.

Yes I do believe the heavier the coat, the better your offhand scores will be, but as far setting (or kneeling) and prone, I don't think they helped that much, but they don't hurt anything either. I'd recommend the heavier coat to anyone getting started.

Ervin · November 19, 2010, 09:22 PM

Coaching has nothing to do with it, he cant tell how tight your sling is or what you see when you look down the sights. Fundamentals can only go so far, but theyre not a fix-all. The biggest variable is the shooter and whether he focuses.
Recoil of a bigger rifle will disalign all the little natural point of aim you had to begin with. It takes way too much time to renew the stability after every shot.

Then you also have to factor in the reload time.
Not only do you have to squeeze off 10 good rounds within the time frame, you have to rebuild that position 10 different times.
If you get caught up in the rate of fire and forget to breathe in and out after every round, you'll fall behind trying to calm down your breathing.

its simply a flimsy position for match grade timed rapid shooting. Sooner or later the left-right sway will get the best of you and your shots will be all over the place.

tominct · December 11, 2010, 06:45 PM

Because of a bum hip, I can't use any kind of sitting position. NRA rules state that if a shooter can't use the prescribed position, he can use an alternate, provided that the alternate position is "less stable". So I had to kneel.

Prone>sitting>kneeling>standing.

BTW, standing IS NOT the same as offhand. Jeff Cooper has a short description of the differences in one of his books.

An attached sling in the standing position needs to be tight. The pendulum action of a loose sling causes an astounding amount of front sight wobble.

I shot the CMP courses for several years with just a T-shirt or a hoodie, or a light fall jacket. I wanted the matches to imitate the way I'd be shooting in the hunting fields.
Once I got into the sport, I decided if I was going to play the game I needed to Play The Game, and got a Turner Saddlery sling and a Creedmoor Hardback.
Scores went up 20 points in a 500-pt aggregate match.

Shooting glove soon followed.

Spent 4 years in Marksman class, then in 2 more (after the equipment upgrades), I made Sharpshooter, and almost made Expert.

November 12, 2010, 02:49 PM	#1
Ervin Junior member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Posts: 125	In the market for a shooting jacket I hoped you guys would know what brand this jacket is (4:37) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8eXrsxwGVk are hasty slings outlawed in the standing or something? I see no one using one

November 12, 2010, 03:29 PM	#2
Bones Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2010 Posts: 122	Got my, bought used with some other equipment. Sometimes the matches I go to look like "Flea Markets" with all the vendors selling used equipment.. __________________ READY on the "LEFT!"....READY on the "RIGHT!"...PULL! Last edited by Bones; November 13, 2010 at 04:36 PM.

November 12, 2010, 05:38 PM	#6
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	There are TWO courses of fire for the GSM (Garand, Springfield, Vintange Military) matches. Course A: Sighting: 200 yards slow fire, any position, 5 shots First: 200 yards slow fire prone 10 shots (you are given 15 min. to fire the 5 sighters and 10 shots for record) Second: 200 yards Rapide fire prone from standing 10 shots, 80 Seconds (this requires a reload, 2 & 8 for the garand, 5 & 5 for bolt guns) Third: 200 yards Slow fire Standing 10 shots in 10 minutes Course B: Sighting: 200 yards slow any position 5 shots First: 200 yards Slow fire prone, (againg 25 min for sighting and prone) Second: 200 yards Rapid, prone from standing, 10 shots 80 sec. Third 200 yards Rapid, Sitting or Kneeling, from standing 10 shots in 70 seconds. Fourth: 200 yards slow fire standing. 10 shots in 10 minutes. Targets for both is the 200 Yards SR target. The match can be fired at 100 yards instead of 200, using the SR1 target (which is the 200 yard target reduced to 100 yards). You will note that the third phase in course B allows for Sitting or Kneeling. Kneeling is not use much because it isn't as stable as the setting positon. Hope this helps. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

November 12, 2010, 10:05 PM	#8
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	That's a coaching problem, any good coach would be able to find a setting position modification that would fit just about anyone. That was one of my specialties, getting handicapped people into a legal position that would fit anyone. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

November 16, 2010, 01:09 PM	#10
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Don't know about 200 yard targets being less then 12 inches. But they have reduces NRA targets designed for 100 yard reduced matchs. SR1 for 200 yard reduced for 100 yards SR21 for 300 yard reduced for 100 yards MR1 for 600 yard reduced for 100 yards Here is a web site where you can down load an print many targets off your printer on 8.5 X 11 paper. http://dotclue.org/targets __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

November 12, 2010, 05:00 PM	#4
Ervin Junior member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Posts: 125	thanks for the info. I may be mistaken, but I havent seen civilians shoot from the kneeling...ever. They're either shooting more shots in the standing or prone. Unless its a service rifle match with a course of fire that resembles that one of the USMC entirely.

November 12, 2010, 05:12 PM	#5
Casimer Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2007 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 1,918	The specific Jacket at 4:37 looks like a Creedmoor lite cordora 'heavy coat' w/o a hardback and w/ vents. e.g. http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store...cat=465&page=1

November 16, 2010, 06:32 AM	#9
Ervin Junior member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Posts: 125	The older generation of Marines opted to alot of open legged sitting positions when dealing with the 1903 Springfield. But yes there is alot of variations to the sitting. Thanks for clearing all that up. Would you happen to know if there is an official NRA centerfire target that is less than 12in wide at 200yds? I wasnt to sure, but I heard of 8-10in targets being used yep it was just a basic cloth coat http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store...cat=249&page=1

November 19, 2010, 03:40 PM	#11
Ervin Junior member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Posts: 125	On the kneeling note: I taught about it and, the fact that its not a stable enough position is only half of the truth. The kneeling is a one shot platform, with bigger rifles, it will take more than 7 seconds to settle back into a steady one. Rate of fire simply isnt its strength. I still think that being allowed to shoot at a 12in bullseye from the 200 and 300 in prone slow fire is a freebie (in certain matches, not all) 300 sitting slow fire is not too challenging, its just too early to get into the prone based on the stuff Ive been doing. any toughts on that creedmoor cloth coath? I forget where I read it but, someone was saying that wearing extra layers and raising your body temperature would slow down the pulse and heart beats, and even lengthen the respiratory pause. I do plan on wearing a layer under the cloth coat to cushion the rifle a bit better...but there's something that sounds too good to be true or entirely wrong about this theory. Usually the hotter you get, the more you breathe and the quicker you get tired. Unneccesary heat is also a huge distraction to your focus.

November 19, 2010, 05:49 PM	#12
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Kneeling like anything else can be a stable positon if done right. This is where a good coach comes in. If you can't shoot a rapid fire string in kneeling, or any other position there is something wrong with the position. A natural point of aim should allow you to rock back into position for the next shot regardless of position. I can attest to the fact that shooting with a heavy coat, and layers of sweat shirts raise the body temp. Shoot a lot of matches in 100 degree temps with 80+ humity, and I'm sure my body temp went up, but it didn't help my shooting. We use to soak down the sweat****s and rap the coat in ice before shooting. Yes I do believe the heavier the coat, the better your offhand scores will be, but as far setting (or kneeling) and prone, I don't think they helped that much, but they don't hurt anything either. I'd recommend the heavier coat to anyone getting started. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

November 19, 2010, 09:22 PM	#13
Ervin Junior member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Posts: 125	Coaching has nothing to do with it, he cant tell how tight your sling is or what you see when you look down the sights. Fundamentals can only go so far, but theyre not a fix-all. The biggest variable is the shooter and whether he focuses. Recoil of a bigger rifle will disalign all the little natural point of aim you had to begin with. It takes way too much time to renew the stability after every shot. Then you also have to factor in the reload time. Not only do you have to squeeze off 10 good rounds within the time frame, you have to rebuild that position 10 different times. If you get caught up in the rate of fire and forget to breathe in and out after every round, you'll fall behind trying to calm down your breathing. its simply a flimsy position for match grade timed rapid shooting. Sooner or later the left-right sway will get the best of you and your shots will be all over the place.

December 11, 2010, 06:45 PM	#14
tominct Member Join Date: November 27, 2010 Posts: 36	Because of a bum hip, I can't use any kind of sitting position. NRA rules state that if a shooter can't use the prescribed position, he can use an alternate, provided that the alternate position is "less stable". So I had to kneel. Prone>sitting>kneeling>standing. BTW, standing IS NOT the same as offhand. Jeff Cooper has a short description of the differences in one of his books. An attached sling in the standing position needs to be tight. The pendulum action of a loose sling causes an astounding amount of front sight wobble. I shot the CMP courses for several years with just a T-shirt or a hoodie, or a light fall jacket. I wanted the matches to imitate the way I'd be shooting in the hunting fields. Once I got into the sport, I decided if I was going to play the game I needed to Play The Game, and got a Turner Saddlery sling and a Creedmoor Hardback. Scores went up 20 points in a 500-pt aggregate match. Shooting glove soon followed. Spent 4 years in Marksman class, then in 2 more (after the equipment upgrades), I made Sharpshooter, and almost made Expert.