Can I see your receipt?

[Ditto_95]

Although any type of firearms registration is expressly forbidden by PA law , the PA State Police have illegally maintained a so-called 'record of sale' database for handguns sold within the state , despite Supreme Court orders to dismantle it.

If you are stopped carrying a handgun and it is not in this registry , or registered to someone else , you just might have it confiscated till you can prove ownership , and even that might not be enough. This includes guns you may have inherited , or even bought legally while the resident of another state. The PSP even freely admit , this database is 'incomplete at best'.

It could lead to a long and expensive battle with you having to get a lawyer , and I think that's their agenda. Who's gonna pay thousands of dollars to get a gun worth a few hundred back.

All of that should get me and my lawyer a tidy sum. Maybe enough to purchase the custom 1911 I have been lusting for.

[Glenn Dee]

Zukiphile...

OK... First allow me to present my bonifides.

I spent 25 years working as a police officer, and then a detective in New York City. I have worked in every kind of neighborhood from the worst public housing to Rockafella center. I have made arrests for every crime imaginable. I have participated in all kinds of investigations, I've exicuted hundreds of warrants, I've answered every kind of call for service imagineable (even loose livestock). Hopefully this would qualify my statements in your mind.

A persons attitude has very little if any bearing on how I do my job. I treat everyone equal. Good attitude, or bad. When you treat everyone equally, people tend to react in a positive way. I dont think I'd be able to treat everyone equally if I got side tracked by their attitude. 99 9/10's% of all people want to be treated with respect, and fairness. If and when treated with respect, and fairness people tend to respond in a positive way.

Also when you dont respond to a persons attitude they soon get bored with themselves and forget what they were angry at in the first place. When your concerned with a persons attitude you become at their effect. They begin to steer your attitude, and actions. Then you become part of the problem, and not part of the soloution.

Again I did say that attitude may have little effect on me in the course of my duties. The police have in some cases some distreation. More often a person with a positive attitude would cause me to consider using whatever discretion I may have on their behalf.

Perhaps your confused with what the police actually do. The highest priority any officer has isnt to get a bad guy, or write X amount of tickets, or even to save the world. A sane police officers highest priority is to go home at the end of his tour in the same condition he came to work.

Zukiphile I hope this clears up any questions you may have. real police work is nothing like on TV... and is mostly quite boring.

Glenn Dee

[Shotgun693]

I've been some kinda Cop for 34 years. IMO, the problem with some agencies and the public is that the only contact the public ever has is a contact/complaint of some sort. If you want good Cops, get involved with your local government, meet Cops every chance you get and find out what the local Police Administration is like. The more Cops are a part of their community and the more the community is a part of that Police agency the better YOUR Cops will be.

[shortwave]

And Thank You,

Glenn Dee for your years of service and your professional attitude throughout your career.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee

First allow me to present my bonifides.

Glenn, you have my apology if you read my question as a doubt of your good faith. It wasn't.

My observation was about the logic of denying that attitude or countenance are observed in an interaction, while simultaneously noting how they affect a PO's treatment of an individual.

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee

I dont think I'd be able to treat everyone equally if I got side tracked by their attitude. 99 9/10's% of all people want to be treated with respect, and fairness. If and when treated with respect, and fairness people tend to respond in a positive way.

Also when you dont respond to a persons attitude they soon get bored with themselves and forget what they were angry at in the first place. When your concerned with a persons attitude you become at their effect. They begin to steer your attitude, and actions. Then you become part of the problem, and not part of the soloution.

That sounds like a very fine outlook.

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee

Perhaps your confused with what the police actually do.

On the contrary, it is informed by what they do. Given your experience, I know you will not claim your attitude to be universal.

[Glenn Dee]

Zukiphile...

Of course I dont claim my methods to be universal. I also take to task the Officer were discussing. I believe I called him a jerk who had no clue to what he was doing. Or perhaps he's trying to manufacture a crime where there was none for his own self agrandizement(sp). This is NOT a professional.

However I think you would be surprised at the number of Officers who allow a persons attitude effect their service. It's gonna be very low. If we let every dolt with a bad attitude get to us we'd go nuts within the first few years.

It's all about going home at the end of the tour in the same condition as you came to work.

[Wag]

Great comments, Glenn. And thank you for your service.



--Wag--

[Ditto_95]

A persons attitude has very little if any bearing on how I do my job. I treat everyone equal. Good attitude, or bad. When you treat everyone equally, people tend to react in a positive way. I dont think I'd be able to treat everyone equally if I got side tracked by their attitude. 99 9/10's% of all people want to be treated with respect, and fairness. If and when treated with respect, and fairness people tend to respond in a positive way.


Glenn, when you have the upper hand in a given situation that is precisely the correct attitiude.
When a situation arises that you may not have the upper hand emotions can over ride common sense and allow things to escalate.

While serving in the military I always had the upper hand and my attitude was exactly as yours. I other personal confrontations, I didn't have the confidence nor the backing of the U.S. military to reinforce my attitude so things didn't always work the way I expected them to.

Thanks for your civil service. I am originally from NY and have friends that are SP as well as local LE. It is a tough state to be in law enforcement.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee

Of course I dont claim my methods to be universal. I also take to task the Officer were discussing.

Good. This should leave you open to the possibility that the PO in question was indeed administering an attitude test, making a request for the purpose of drawing a response he could use to evaluate the individual.

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee

This is NOT a professional.

You may be right. That wouldn't make the conduct uncommon or unforeseeable.

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee

However I think you would be surprised at the number of Officers who allow a persons attitude effect their service.

"Effect their service"? That's an odd way to express the idea that a question may be asked primarily for the purpose of evaluating the speaker.

You write as if you are battling a misconception born from television portrayals and an ignorance of police work. If attitude tests were mere fiction, "contempt of cop" wouldn't be the problemmatic situation it so frequently is. You may believe that members of the bar only see these things when they go wrong and have a skewed view (a critique that may have real merit), but these incidents are frequent enough that we can foresee them and warn against them.

[Glenn Dee]

OK Zuhkophile

Now I have a tad more insight into the conversation. Perhaps a better understanding of your point of view.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CONTEMPT OF COP!!!!... It's a made up thing. The term is found no where in the letter of the law. I believe it's a defense attorney term used in attempt to impeach an officer in court. In fact I've had it used on me probably a few times when a defense attorney didnt have much of a defense they always seem to attack the cop or the victim. And thats OK with me... Thats what I signed on for. I understand the whole "Entitled to the best defence available" thing. And I dont mind saying that if I were on trial I'd want my lawyer to give me the best defense available.

I have been at trial and examined by some really good attorneys... Including Ron Kuby, Mel Sachs, and a few whom I cant remember their name.

Now having said that... THERE IS NO ATTITUDE TEST!... what?... and if I dont like the attitude?... then what? Manufacture a crime? Illegally detain someone?... Issue a summons for a nonexistant violation? That would make me the criminal... no? LOL Evaluate the individual? for what?... to what end? I dont know if this "attitude test" is common, uncommon, or unforseeable. I can only state my own experiences, and those where I have been present.

Again... I dont believe the officer was correct in his actions, and questioning. So I certainly dont agree that the officer was asking a question to evaluate a person.(speaker) As I said ... I dont believe this officer had a clue as to what he was doing. He may have thought he was fishing... IMO If both radio cars were parked to block the citizens exit... That Officer should have given him miranda warnings. The police dont get to make it up as they go along. There are law's, and rules. Contrary to what some may believe we dont yet live in a police state.

Contrary to popular belief... The police provide service. Police science 101. Law enforcement is only one component of the service the police provide. The police are in the service of their comunity, their local government, and their state. Though it may be hard for some to understand... sometimes the police may provide the service of protecting you from yourself.

Well... I dont think I'm battling anything. There always have been misconceptions about the police, and always will be. In every medium.

I think probably there is a lack of training, and professionalism in some departments. I truely believe that a police department is reflective of the comunity they serve.

If an officer acts improperly he can be impeached at trial. Then spend the rest of his career as a unich.

AHAAHHH! Now I remember the whole contempt of officer thing. First coined by William Kunsler... and ridden the wheels off of by his protege' Ron Kuby.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CONTEMPT OF COP!!!!... It's a made up thing. The term is found no where in the letter of the law.

You seem very emphatic about that, but it isn't an undocumented phenomenon. "Wood shampoo" and "fell on the way to the station" aren't in the letter of the law, but that doesn't diminish their reality.

While "contempt of cop" isn't in the code, disorderly conduct and failure to obey a lawful order, resisting arrest and obstructing are in the code and can serve as the citation actually served.

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee

what?... and if I dont like the attitude?... then what? Manufacture a crime? Illegally detain someone?... Issue a summons for a nonexistant violation? That would make me the criminal... no? LOL Evaluate the individual? for what?... to what end? I dont know if this "attitude test" is common, uncommon, or unforseeable.

I would hope you would not manufacture a crime, illegally detain anyone, or issue a summons for a non-existent violation, yet some POs have.

You might legitimately evaluate an individual in order to determine what steps you need to take in order to insure your own safety.

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee

I think probably there is a lack of training, and professionalism in some departments.

Undoubtedly. I would also agree that different policing cultures can exist in different areas. It is unfair to paint the courteous and professional with the same broad brush used for the other sort.

One other part of your post merits capital letters.

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee

I can only state my own experiences, and those where I have been present.

I appreciate that and suggest that it limits your other capitalised language.

[Glenn Dee]

LOL OK Zukiphile... you know sooner or later they will cut us off...LOL

But here go's

I dont know where you practice. But I certainly wouldnt want to live there. Wood shampoo?... lol thats a new one. I didnt think anyone use wood anymore. But I get the point. I cant think of why any department could let an injury to a prisoner go undocumented. Fell on the way to the stationhouse? The one thing I have noticed is that todays officers go to great length, sometimes at their own risk to avoid injuring prisoners. Injured prisoners in police custody is the exception, not the rule.

Disorderly conduct, Obstructing governmental administration, and resisting arrest are codified by your state legislature. Not the police. While there is the possibility of abusing these sometimes pettit charges, evidently the legislature saw fit to put them on the books... so the problem may go beyond the police no? As far as charges like disobeying, or failing to obey a lawful order, resisting arrest without violence, loitering, and other ambiguous charges Probably wouldnt stand up to constitutional muster. But it would require an attorney with the cash, and the stones to take it that far.

Any police Officer who brings false charges must also be brought before justice to answer for his crimes. Most cops I know would never tolerate this. Now keep in mind that a person arrested rarely agree's with the charges... That dont make the charges unjust.

Contempt of cop is not a legal term, nor has it been accepted as an affermative defense in any court that I know of. And I still keep up with some of the local, NY, and US reports. Again it was made up by a very famous defense attorney as an attempt to discount a police officers testimony. Police Officers are human, and are cut from the same stuff as everyone else. A police officer is duty bound to maintain a level temperment. Because they are human they are subject to losing their temper. Most cases of abuse of authority follow an Officer losing his temper. (Female officers rarely lose their temper). Most officers I have known to lose their temper(including myself) was as a result of a personal assault, untempered insult, or ridicule. It does happen. But still it does not justify any abuse of authority.

Like every other cop in this forum, every other cop in the country, and I'd bet every other cop in the world. I already have a plan to protect myself. Thats going to happen weather I'm dealing with a 6'2" thug with his pants down around his knees with dead spiders on his head, or a 92 year old picture of Betty Crocker great grandmother driving a 29 year old buick. Dead or injured from either is exactly the same. So I treat them the same... with respect and dignity, But at the same time I have a plan to kill them.

Given your description of police conduct in your area... as a attorney (if you are one... I dont know) you should be rich from wrongfull injury, and unlawful arrest suits.

[Glenn Dee]

Oh yeah... you seem to feel that my statement limits my exposure. weellll lets look at that...

I worked in a department with 40,000 sworn men and women, I also worked closely with other departments.
Nassau County P.D.
Sofolk County P.D.
Westchester County sheriff
NY State police
Mt.Vernon P.D.
NY State dept of corrections,and Parole
Yonkers P.D.
Jersy City P.D.
NY,NJ Port Authority P.D.
Drug Enforcement administration
BATFE
FBI
NY Parks police
US Parks police
Newark P.D.
NYS Unified court system
NYS Special narcotics prosicutor Sterling Johnson
U.S. Marshal service
Federal Protective Service
NY Dept of investigation
NY Taxi & Limo commision

There are probably a few I dont remember any more. Admitedly my exposure is reagonal, but as I'm now living in Florida I see the same standards in the local agencies

Volusia county Sheriff
Daytona P.D.
Holly hill P.D
Daytona beach shores P.D.
Brevard county Sheriff
Broward county Sheriff
Margate P.D.
Coconut creek P.D.
Hollywood P.D.

Ft Lauderdale PD is deliberately left out.

So I'd say that my exposure probably covers a wider spectrum than most.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee

Oh yeah... you seem to feel that my statement limits my exposure. weellll lets look at that...

No. I note that your admission that you are only speaking from personal observation limits the unqualified denials you make. See the difference?

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee

I dont know where you practice. ...Given your description of police conduct in your area... as a attorney (if you are one... I dont know) you should be rich from wrongfull injury, and unlawful arrest suits.

That isn't my practice area. I practice in Cleveland.

Cleveland is like Detroit on a smaller scale. It has a city with a beautiful history and a bleak future, and a ring of suburbs to which everyone who could has escaped.

Cleveland has approximately 60 suburbs each with its own government and PD, so one can observe the difference in behavior of the poorly trained and paid, and the well trained and paid. In some places, I've had POs address me by my christian name in routine traffic stops, in other places where the PO is more likely to think of you as a constituent, I was treated with complete courtesy. I've also been handed a speeding ticket by a PO who didn't even pretend it was a good ticket. In the very same City, I've met some of the very finest men, and they were POs.

One thing I didn't understand until I spoke with some police at social events was that in some respects they distribute much the same way teachers do. If you are talented and well educated, you tend to go to places with better pay and working conditions.

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee

Wood shampoo?... lol thats a new one.

Not new by a long shot. I heard it from a PO when I was a lad.

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee

But still it does not justify any abuse of authority.

I agree. To justify an act and foresee that it may occur are different.


Glenn, the point here isn't to smear POs, but to explain why a PO described in the first post might have asked such an odd question. It is possible, as you suggest, that this PO just didn't know what he was doing. My sense is that he had a reason to ask, since people usually have a reason for what they do.

But that's just my guess.

[MLeake]

In the Navy, we had terms like "blanket party" (which anybody who has seen Full Metal Jacket will understand) and "he fell down a ladder" (ladder is Navy speak for stairs").

These weren't official terms, nor anything approved under policy anywhere. Yet people knew exactly what you meant, because some troublemakers sometimes ran into such issues. Everybody knew somebody who had done so. Doesn't mean it was endorsed, nor even tolerated... but doesn't mean it never happened.

Glenn Dee, nobody is claiming that such things are considered the norm, or proper. I think what people are suggesting is that there are some officers out there who don't adhere to departmental norms, and some departments out there that are less professional than others.

Canton PD isn't in a very good light, at the moment...

A year or two ago, one of the Broward departments had a bit of a scandal when a couple of its officers were caught on their own dash-cam figuring out how to falsely blame a civilian for an accident.

Does that mean Canton PD has a policy of abusing concealed carriers, or Broward (don't remember which agency) trains its officers to make up evidence? Of course not. Just that bad apples occur.

FWIW, back in the 80's, Volusia County Sheriff's Department made no bones about the fact that they racially profiled when looking for drug runners, so profiling and other ploys have been the norm in at least some agencies, at some points in time.

[JustThisGuy]

Still, I can't remember a recent case of bad P.O. behavior that was so egregious and where that behavior was supported or excused so roundly by the Police Chief and local elected officials. Canton, OH is a special case.

I don't understand why the FBI hasn't stepped in to this fray for a civil rights violation, except that the victim was a "gun-totin feller".

[Uncle Buck]

Seems there are two types of people who responded to this thread.

1. Cops can never be trusted and they are all idiots and not really qualified for anything else.

2. Cops are just people trained to do a job. Why hassle them?

I am glad I fall in to the second category. Almost every department has a bad cop. Some are worse than others and hopefully they are found out quickly.

I live in a jurisdiction in which the local sheriffs deputies have been in the neighborhood and stopped by when they hear gun shots. Usually to see what we are shooting and to get a "Range Report."

Our deputies are pretty nice folks and each and everyone of them have an open invitation to stop by and shoot if they want to. They can even bring their families.

I have filed complaints with the sheriffs office before (Texting on cell phones while driving/not wearing seat belts in county cars). I have also called and thanked the sheriffs department for things I see the deputies doing.

[MLeake]

Uncle Buck, that's a false dichotomy.

I think most of us probably fall into a different category. This category thinks that most cops are good guys, and that LE is an honorable profession. However, there are some jerks out there - some due to attitude, some due to poor training, and some due to overall departmental atmosphere. These are not the majority, nor even a large minority, but pretending they do not exist is just plain stupid.

I interact with officers in a friendly and respectful manner. Of those I've dealt with over the years, I'd say the jerk category probably included 10-15%, but the really good guy category was probably more like 30-40%, and the remainder were professionally aloof.

I don't think those percentages differ too much from those in EMS, military, or other higher-risk professions.

But your either/or grouping is naive and counter-productive, Uncle Buck. I normally would not associate either term with you.

[zincwarrior]

Seems there are two types of people who responded to this thread.

1. Cops can never be trusted and they are all idiots and not really qualified for anything else.

2. Cops are just people trained to do a job. Why hassle them?

I have to disagree with that. Many of the posters are also saying:
1. We have the right to remain silent, anything we say can and will be used against us. Be polite but you don't have to volunteer information or answer a question. If you didn't initiate the contact with the PO, nothing good can come from it.

2. Thats just a strange and frankly stupid thing to ask. It is designed to potentially implicate someone who is stopped. No thanks.

I think most of us probably fall into a different category. This category thinks that most cops are good guys, and that LE is an honorable profession. However, there are some jerks out there - some due to attitude, some due to poor training, and some due to overall departmental atmosphere. These are not the majority, nor even a large minority, but pretending they do not exist is just plain stupid.

I interact with officers in a friendly and respectful manner. Of those I've dealt with over the years, I'd say the jerk category probably included 10-15%, but the really good guy category was probably more like 30-40%, and the remainder were professionally aloof.

Indeed.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by MLeake

Uncle Buck, that's a false dichotomy.

I think most of us probably fall into a different category. This category thinks that most cops are good guys, and that LE is an honorable profession. However, there are some jerks out there - some due to attitude, some due to poor training, and some due to overall departmental atmosphere. These are not the majority, nor even a large minority, but pretending they do not exist is just plain stupid.

I interact with officers in a friendly and respectful manner. Of those I've dealt with over the years, I'd say the jerk category probably included 10-15%, but the really good guy category was probably more like 30-40%, and the remainder were professionally aloof.

I don't think those percentages differ too much from those in EMS, military, or other higher-risk professions.

But your either/or grouping is naive and counter-productive, Uncle Buck. I normally would not associate either term with you.

I agree that the offered dichotomy isn't fair to the conversation, and would add that almost all groups tend to follow a normal bell curve, but parts of the bell curve may be more easy to observe in some groups. I think that has a lot to do with negative perceptions of attorneys. Couple that with part of police involving confrontational transactions and you have a formula for lots of unpleasant interactions on which you can be judged.


This morning on the way down to the courthouse around which someone is shooting a film, I had a kid with a badge and poor manners stop me by standing in front of me. "Where you goin'?"

I didn't say "Who wants to know?" or "None of your business" or "You've no PC to ask me that!". Life is too short and if we got wrapped around every minute chance to uphold a principle, we'd get very little done. I just pointed to the building.

He didn't share my philosophy, and chose to say "Kay, go 'head!", stand in my way and repeat it. I walked forward moving him out of my way, but that was because I don't condone that sort of rudeness, even in a public employee.

[Uncle Buck]

Uncle Buck, that's a false dichotomy.

Your right. There are clouds of many colors and people with different degrees of professionalism, all with-in the same categories.

[FrosSsT]

He can ask to see whatever he wants, whether you show him or not is your choice. (Of course that will change his disposition towards you)

[C0untZer0]

I bought a used Glock 34 and then a 17L. I liked the trigger kit in the G34 and hated the stock trigger in the 17L. So I swapped the striker assembly and put the 17L slide on my G34 frame.

I guess I would need 2 receipts?