Shock and Awe ammo sequence to combat (real) pirates - Page 3

manonash · September 9, 2009, 06:42 PM

You guys are cracking me up with this Barrett .50 talk I'd need a much bigger boat! (seriously, this would be very difficult to maneuver, even on deck - let alone down below.)

I just spoke with a maritime lawyer, who simplified the laws pretty well for me. In short, in international waters, you are responsible to the laws of your flag country (in terms of caliber, capacity, FA, rules of engagement, etc...) I have also been speaking with a couple of builders about adding layers of kevlar and steel inside the hull, beneath portholes on each side (that we'd be firing from, if possible.) Not cheap, but...

The whole problem here is the Gulf of Aden. I don't mind staying 500 miles from Malaysia, even if it means adding 3-5 extra days to a passage. But, I'd much rather head up the Red Sea to get to the Med than go all the way around Africa (pretty much staying is hostile territory the whole time).

Just traded my shotty in for a Winchester 1300 Marine pump (less maintenance worry). Looking for a decent marine-friendly SA in .308 or .338. Have plenty of handguns if it comes to that.

Other than being prepared from an arms/tactics point of view, we will plan out trip very carefully, avoiding as many hostile areas as possible, while traveling in caravans and/or under escort when possible.

Thanks for your help! If you have any more ideas. Let me know.

earlthegoat2 · September 10, 2009, 07:29 AM

I like the shotgun idea but you need more than one. If a 50 rifle is out the question then get 1 or better yet 5 M1A rifles.

darkgael · September 10, 2009, 12:31 PM

Shock and awe only works if you have more of it than the other side. As per your plans at the moment, you don't.
About the Barrett - which I think is the best idea by far (and the priciest) - how big do you think a Barrett semi-auto is anyway? A Remington 870 is spec'd at 46-48" long. A Barrett with the 20" barrel is the same length as the 870. The longer barrel for the Barrett adds nine inches. How is that too big? I've spent a lot of time on sailing vessels (my son lived on one for years) and don't see the length as a big issue. The $9K price tag is something else, however.
Pete

MikeGoob · September 10, 2009, 02:07 PM

or you can get a 308 in a bull pup design for compact purposes

Lee Lapin · September 10, 2009, 07:04 PM

I doubt any potential attackers are going to give you enough warning or indication of their intent ahead of time to make the standoff ability inherent in a powerful CF rifle any advantage to you as they close for their assault. Once contact is made and the attackers find themselves unable to press the attack home without resistance from you, however, they may fall back and attempt retaliation from a distance.

So you have two choices, essentially, as far as I can tell. Clear their decks promptly and completely upon first contact, or be prepared to stand them off after they open range and continue their fire once the initial assault fails. Neither one of those are attractive alternatives, but getting tossed over your own transom with your throat cut has a pretty high suckage quotient as well.

Were I planning this, every adult capable of handling one safely and effectively would have a sidearm available. In the only times I've had to carry a sidearm in a marine environment, I found a Glock quite satisfactory. It came off a lot better exposed to salt spray than the Beretta M9s the coasties we encountered a couple of times were carrying. I bought my first Glock in 1990 with the specific purpose of carrying it in a marine environment, and had ocasion to carry it several more times subsequently. It never gave me any problems.

I think you did really well finding a Winchester 1300 marine version- those are nice guns, and sadly out of production now. Learn to run it really well, and lay in a good stock of heavy loads for it- 00 or 000 buck, Brenneke rifled slugs (I like Brenneke KOs- not the sabot stuff though), maybe even some Dixie Tri-Ball ( http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html ).

You can pretty well select your pattern size by picking different brands/loads of buckshot. A CYL or cylinder bore barrel is no drawback here. For wide open patterns, the cheap stuff (Rio, S&B etc) with unprotected soft lead pellets will get you there as a rule. The run-of-the-mill buckshot from leading manufacturers will get you mid sized patterns most of the time. And the expensive premium stuff- Federal with FliteControl wads, or Hornady TAP FPD, likewise with FliteControl, will get you amazingly tight patterns out of many barrels at pretty surprising distances. For this application, I personally would stay away from any of the reduced recoil loads. Reduced recoil means either reduced velocity or reduced payload or both, and I don't want either when it's for serious.

I don't really see any use for anything other than serious lead projectiles, personally. The "blammo ammo" stuff is a mere novelty, IMHO. If I'm going to unlimber a shotgun for serious, I want to blow big honking holes in stuff, period. YMMV of course. It's your neck after all.

This stuff will be painful to shoot in a gun that doesn't weigh about eight pounds or so, adding some weight to the gun by filling some of the stock voids with lead shot might be a help.

When I was experimenting with the then-new FN Police Pump (a 1300 clone) a couple of years ago (see http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=170316 ), I found recoil with heavy loads unpleasant in the relatively light weight shotgun. I added a 2-shot magazine extension for more weight up front, and filled the void under the pistol grip cap in the synthetic stock with lead shot as well. If you wanted an extended magazine on your 1300, you could always get the extension plated to match. A better recoil pad might help too.

I'd get as many 12 gauge marine type shotguns on board as there were people capable of using them safely and effectvely in the crew. Remington's 870 Marine Magnum is a bit heavier from the factory, with its all steel receiver, and they are still being made. The Mossberg 590 is made in a marine finish as well, and they are good guns. I don't have any experience with the new Charles Daly in the chrome finish, or otherwise, so I can't offer an endorsement for it yet.

I'd make sure at least one person on the crew had a full blown shotgun class, if you do decide to depend on scatterguns as primary armament. Louis Awerbuck or Randy Cain come immediately to mind as the instructors I would look for. Then that person could work with everyone else on the crew to hone their fighting shotgun skills.

JMHO, YMMV, FWIW,

lpl

hogdogs · September 10, 2009, 07:18 PM

Quote:

I doubt any potential attackers are going to give you enough warning or indication of their intent ahead of time to make the standoff ability inherent in a powerful CF rifle any advantage to you as they close for their assault.

That is where a 64 or 96 mile radar in the hands of a well versed operator paying close attention to the screen comes in handy as heck. when an operator is entering dangerous waters, the gain knob gets cranked a little tighter so you could basically see the fin of a porpoise approaching

Brent

RichM · September 10, 2009, 08:48 PM

Radar is a great idea - you'll know what's going on around you - including the weather. We use it to avoid weather here in FL (and to find flocks of seagulls where the tuna are).

As for shotguns - the 870 is a better gun than Charles Daily or Mossberg. I've been hunting ducks iun salt water for 30 years and have had my 870 for 20 of them - same gun, not 1 failure. Can't say the same for the Mossbergs.

If a load of buckshot can kill deer to 70+ yards, why can't it do the work on a person? Think 00 or 000 for distance and #4 for close work (inside 50 yards). I have no idea what a buckshot pellet does to a wrist or ankle but I bet it hurts.

I would look more for the AK/Mini-30 route with 30+ round magazines and high capacity handguns - 9mm with 18 round clips for side arms. The ARs are expensive and the bullets aren't much different.

What I wanted to say was that you now have to practice shooting at moving targets while you are moving! LOL!

Nothing worse than shooting some trap or skeet a couple of times before you go - you need to lead and not stop your swing. It will also give you an excuse to get use to the 12 ga and pumping it....and loading it as you shoot.

Teach the wife the AK/Mini-30 and handguns. You can handle the shotgun work.

Kevlar to the hull won't stop bullets - 150 gr rifle bullets will go all the way thru the boat - side to side.

Lee Lapin · September 11, 2009, 08:23 AM

Radar will let you know someone is there, or if they are coming closer. It won't tell you who they are or what their intentions are though...

Just saying...

lpl

hogdogs · September 11, 2009, 08:50 AM

Lee, I agree... But once you are in well open seas, any vessel making direct headway to your position is reason to give concern... Ready the vessel and crew for anything. In less than secure waters, all firepower should be accessible in rapid order with at least your first line of defense nearly fire ready.

One more thing for prepping the arms and ammo... I said color coding the ammo to make it easier for others to assist... Why not put a like color of electrical tape wrap on stock and barrel. Red paint on the 12 gauge ammo cans red tape on the shotgun, green tape on the rifle green paint... (well they are already green

)
Brent

zombieslayer · September 11, 2009, 01:00 PM

Dude, when zombie pirates attack, you need at least a battle rifle in .308 with lotsa magazines. a 50 BMG on your deck would be the best you could do imho. i'd also have any glock in the flavor you like and a few mags as well. Hell, I have 50 lbs of ammo just in my truck!!!!!!!!

hogdogs · September 11, 2009, 01:04 PM

Zombie pirates are not the risk of reality... heck they won't show up on radar no how...
It is the real life pirates that a sailing family must be prepared for...

Zombie talk is actually not allowed here...
PM en route.
Brent

zombieslayer · September 11, 2009, 01:06 PM

well, real pirates are still not going to wana be shot at with 308win. damn

hogdogs · September 11, 2009, 01:09 PM

Real pirates don't want to be shot at with a .22lr. It is their hopes that the target won't even pull an Olin orange flare gun out.
Brent

greensteelforge · September 11, 2009, 01:18 PM

You are talking about engaging a paramilitary force with a high likelihood that they have combat experience. All you will do by being armed is get yourself and your passengers and crew killed and wounded, and increase the number and types of weapons that the pirates have. Your most effective defense would be to make yourself appear to be of little to no value to them. Don't travel the dangerous parts of your trip with the boat decked to the nines, and everybody on board dressed like they have a bank account. Unless you've go armor, don't engage, an RPG is no joke (been shot at with more than a few), and anyone who thinks they can take on a well armed pack of third world killers with commercially available weapons is both foolish, and suicidal. Unarmed, you will almost certainly make it through alive, if a bit behind schedule, and lighter in the wallet. Your first shot would be about all you'd get, and it would be promptly answered by automatic rifle fire, rockets, and whatever else they have to throw at you. Forget sniping in open water, too, unless you've done it before (and allot), you won't hit anything but sky and ocean.

hogdogs · September 11, 2009, 01:31 PM

Green, You are 100% incorrect in this... You are very unlikely to survive! YOU AS A LIFE HAVE NO VALUE ALREADY!!! They want the vessel and stores and will not toss you over in a raft to identify them or your missing vessel to the authority. you will be shark turds in short order. It is the commercial merchant marine employees that have a "life value". This "para military force" will be 3-8 individuals in one boarding vessel of the private stolen variety... These "goons" are not trained to fight force with force... They are trained to board and terrorize the occupants into submission and kill them or take them hostage if ransom expectations are high. They are more likely to back off at the first sign of resistance and fight from a distance (reason or a .30-06) or return later (not as likely as you will likely have hailed attention from authority and naval forces)...
If they do return with a back up vessel... shoot at both equally.

Brent

hrr6011 · September 12, 2009, 07:57 PM

Manonash,May God be with you.But,if you are determined to do this with the wife in tow and no escort.IMO,Use Glocks(10mm,.45,.40)full size.Tough,rust resistant,proven.Marine grade Shotguns with .00 for boarders only.HK91,FAL,M14,AR10,HK93 or M4 rifles.(at Least 2).There are cheaper versions out there.But,I stress reliability.Reliability or death.Know your weapons.Practice often.Keep them clean.Have plenty of ammo.You can get food and water .Ammo will be at a premium.And most of all mindset.This is where people live or die.If they board you will at the least be tortured and abused.Remember this.You most likely will die.Fire to kill from a distance with your rifle.If they keep coming fire at will until the assault is repelled or they board.If boarded,Use shotguns and handguns as needed from a fortified prearranged position.Remember,they are there to do you harm.You harm first without hesitation or remorse.Then vacate the premises as fast as the wind will take you.

RR

hrr6011 · September 12, 2009, 08:11 PM

Manonash,May God be with you.But,if you are determined to do this with the wife in tow and no escort.IMO,Use Glocks(10mm,.45,.40)full size.Tough,rust resistant,proven.Marine grade Shotguns with .00 for boarders only.HK91,FAL,M14,AR10,HK93 or M4 rifles.(at Least 2).There are cheaper versions out there.But,I stress reliability.Reliability or death.Know your weapons.Practice often.Keep them clean.Have plenty of ammo.You can get food and water .Ammo will be at a premium.And most of all mindset.This is where people live or die.If they board you will at the least be tortured and abused.Remember this.You most likely will die.Fire to kill from a distance with your rifle.If they keep coming fire at will until the assault is repelled or they board.If boarded,Use shotguns and handguns as needed from a fortified prearranged position.Remember,they are there to do you harm.You harm first without hesitation or remorse.Then vacate the premises as fast as the wind will take you.

RR

Rail · September 12, 2009, 09:18 PM

I've some sailing experience though not a lot on open water - but a couple of friends who have and one of those has a master's ticket and ferries yachts for a living. I asked him about this and he had two comments. The first was basically, be lucky. The second was that after a couple of weeks at sea he can shoot well offhand. He uses a FAL, and having a couple myself, I concur that the reliability of military arms is important. His brother was SAS and says a bullpup is the better way to go - keeping the movement of the barrel down - but we both pointed out to him that he was forced to go with the bullpup...

This guy is still at sea.
The other guy sailed the Caribbean a lot and he said the waters there are perhaps worse because the likelihood of other boats is so much higher than in Malaysian waters and he worries more about the proximity of land masses. He is less concerned with Malaysia because he feels he can afford to be less laissez-fair about the traffic and immediately retrieve a rifle if something pops up. He has also had several run-ins in the leewards that were not too pleasant, ending up in hospital on one occasion. He simply said to never tell someone what your next port of call is at the club, and leave early in the morning when heading out. Other than that he bowed to the Brit (he's Rhodesian - not Zimbabwean - as he would say) on the matter of what to take along - we all attended the same boarding school in the dark continent way back.
My mate's brother does have a good point though about the bullpup, and you may find that a PS90 or such, though its rounds might be small are both loaded to the gills at fifty rounds, easy to hold on target, and easier to conceal and ammo takes up less room loaded into those long mags. Again, we grew up with FALs but I have to listen to a guy with a lot of experience in a more lethal kind of existence.
Good luck to you, and go for it! A night under the Southern Cross is worth a little worry.
Jim

Rail · September 12, 2009, 09:28 PM

I should add that the guy with the master's ticket is a dead ringer for a blond-haired 6'6" 250 pound rugby player, so keep in mind that a FAL gets heavier by the second offhand, distance shooting, without the usual jacket and glove of a hi-power shooter - and its not like you can lean on the mast..

September 10, 2009, 12:31 PM	#53
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Barrett Shock and awe only works if you have more of it than the other side. As per your plans at the moment, you don't. About the Barrett - which I think is the best idea by far (and the priciest) - how big do you think a Barrett semi-auto is anyway? A Remington 870 is spec'd at 46-48" long. A Barrett with the 20" barrel is the same length as the 870. The longer barrel for the Barrett adds nine inches. How is that too big? I've spent a lot of time on sailing vessels (my son lived on one for years) and don't see the length as a big issue. The $9K price tag is something else, however. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

September 10, 2009, 07:04 PM	#55
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	I doubt any potential attackers are going to give you enough warning or indication of their intent ahead of time to make the standoff ability inherent in a powerful CF rifle any advantage to you as they close for their assault. Once contact is made and the attackers find themselves unable to press the attack home without resistance from you, however, they may fall back and attempt retaliation from a distance. So you have two choices, essentially, as far as I can tell. Clear their decks promptly and completely upon first contact, or be prepared to stand them off after they open range and continue their fire once the initial assault fails. Neither one of those are attractive alternatives, but getting tossed over your own transom with your throat cut has a pretty high suckage quotient as well. Were I planning this, every adult capable of handling one safely and effectively would have a sidearm available. In the only times I've had to carry a sidearm in a marine environment, I found a Glock quite satisfactory. It came off a lot better exposed to salt spray than the Beretta M9s the coasties we encountered a couple of times were carrying. I bought my first Glock in 1990 with the specific purpose of carrying it in a marine environment, and had ocasion to carry it several more times subsequently. It never gave me any problems. I think you did really well finding a Winchester 1300 marine version- those are nice guns, and sadly out of production now. Learn to run it really well, and lay in a good stock of heavy loads for it- 00 or 000 buck, Brenneke rifled slugs (I like Brenneke KOs- not the sabot stuff though), maybe even some Dixie Tri-Ball ( http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html ). You can pretty well select your pattern size by picking different brands/loads of buckshot. A CYL or cylinder bore barrel is no drawback here. For wide open patterns, the cheap stuff (Rio, S&B etc) with unprotected soft lead pellets will get you there as a rule. The run-of-the-mill buckshot from leading manufacturers will get you mid sized patterns most of the time. And the expensive premium stuff- Federal with FliteControl wads, or Hornady TAP FPD, likewise with FliteControl, will get you amazingly tight patterns out of many barrels at pretty surprising distances. For this application, I personally would stay away from any of the reduced recoil loads. Reduced recoil means either reduced velocity or reduced payload or both, and I don't want either when it's for serious. I don't really see any use for anything other than serious lead projectiles, personally. The "blammo ammo" stuff is a mere novelty, IMHO. If I'm going to unlimber a shotgun for serious, I want to blow big honking holes in stuff, period. YMMV of course. It's your neck after all. This stuff will be painful to shoot in a gun that doesn't weigh about eight pounds or so, adding some weight to the gun by filling some of the stock voids with lead shot might be a help. When I was experimenting with the then-new FN Police Pump (a 1300 clone) a couple of years ago (see http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=170316 ), I found recoil with heavy loads unpleasant in the relatively light weight shotgun. I added a 2-shot magazine extension for more weight up front, and filled the void under the pistol grip cap in the synthetic stock with lead shot as well. If you wanted an extended magazine on your 1300, you could always get the extension plated to match. A better recoil pad might help too. I'd get as many 12 gauge marine type shotguns on board as there were people capable of using them safely and effectvely in the crew. Remington's 870 Marine Magnum is a bit heavier from the factory, with its all steel receiver, and they are still being made. The Mossberg 590 is made in a marine finish as well, and they are good guns. I don't have any experience with the new Charles Daly in the chrome finish, or otherwise, so I can't offer an endorsement for it yet. I'd make sure at least one person on the crew had a full blown shotgun class, if you do decide to depend on scatterguns as primary armament. Louis Awerbuck or Randy Cain come immediately to mind as the instructors I would look for. Then that person could work with everyone else on the crew to hone their fighting shotgun skills. JMHO, YMMV, FWIW, lpl __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill. Last edited by Lee Lapin; September 10, 2009 at 07:11 PM.

September 11, 2009, 08:23 AM	#58
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	Radar will let you know someone is there, or if they are coming closer. It won't tell you who they are or what their intentions are though... Just saying... lpl __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

September 11, 2009, 08:50 AM	#59
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Lee, I agree... But once you are in well open seas, any vessel making direct headway to your position is reason to give concern... Ready the vessel and crew for anything. In less than secure waters, all firepower should be accessible in rapid order with at least your first line of defense nearly fire ready. One more thing for prepping the arms and ammo... I said color coding the ammo to make it easier for others to assist... Why not put a like color of electrical tape wrap on stock and barrel. Red paint on the 12 gauge ammo cans red tape on the shotgun, green tape on the rifle green paint... (well they are already green) Brent

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September 9, 2009, 06:42 PM	#51
manonash Junior Member Join Date: September 1, 2009 Posts: 6	You guys are cracking me up with this Barrett .50 talk I'd need a much bigger boat! (seriously, this would be very difficult to maneuver, even on deck - let alone down below.) I just spoke with a maritime lawyer, who simplified the laws pretty well for me. In short, in international waters, you are responsible to the laws of your flag country (in terms of caliber, capacity, FA, rules of engagement, etc...) I have also been speaking with a couple of builders about adding layers of kevlar and steel inside the hull, beneath portholes on each side (that we'd be firing from, if possible.) Not cheap, but... The whole problem here is the Gulf of Aden. I don't mind staying 500 miles from Malaysia, even if it means adding 3-5 extra days to a passage. But, I'd much rather head up the Red Sea to get to the Med than go all the way around Africa (pretty much staying is hostile territory the whole time). Just traded my shotty in for a Winchester 1300 Marine pump (less maintenance worry). Looking for a decent marine-friendly SA in .308 or .338. Have plenty of handguns if it comes to that. Other than being prepared from an arms/tactics point of view, we will plan out trip very carefully, avoiding as many hostile areas as possible, while traveling in caravans and/or under escort when possible. Thanks for your help! If you have any more ideas. Let me know.

September 10, 2009, 07:29 AM	#52
earlthegoat2 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2009 Location: Lowcountry Posts: 373	I like the shotgun idea but you need more than one. If a 50 rifle is out the question then get 1 or better yet 5 M1A rifles.

September 10, 2009, 02:07 PM	#54
MikeGoob Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2006 Posts: 876	or you can get a 308 in a bull pup design for compact purposes

September 10, 2009, 08:48 PM	#57
RichM Junior Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Posts: 13	Radar is a great idea - you'll know what's going on around you - including the weather. We use it to avoid weather here in FL (and to find flocks of seagulls where the tuna are). As for shotguns - the 870 is a better gun than Charles Daily or Mossberg. I've been hunting ducks iun salt water for 30 years and have had my 870 for 20 of them - same gun, not 1 failure. Can't say the same for the Mossbergs. If a load of buckshot can kill deer to 70+ yards, why can't it do the work on a person? Think 00 or 000 for distance and #4 for close work (inside 50 yards). I have no idea what a buckshot pellet does to a wrist or ankle but I bet it hurts. I would look more for the AK/Mini-30 route with 30+ round magazines and high capacity handguns - 9mm with 18 round clips for side arms. The ARs are expensive and the bullets aren't much different. What I wanted to say was that you now have to practice shooting at moving targets while you are moving! LOL! Nothing worse than shooting some trap or skeet a couple of times before you go - you need to lead and not stop your swing. It will also give you an excuse to get use to the 12 ga and pumping it....and loading it as you shoot. Teach the wife the AK/Mini-30 and handguns. You can handle the shotgun work. Kevlar to the hull won't stop bullets - 150 gr rifle bullets will go all the way thru the boat - side to side.

September 11, 2009, 01:00 PM	#60
zombieslayer Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,198	Dude, when zombie pirates attack, you need at least a battle rifle in .308 with lotsa magazines. a 50 BMG on your deck would be the best you could do imho. i'd also have any glock in the flavor you like and a few mags as well. Hell, I have 50 lbs of ammo just in my truck!!!!!!!!

September 11, 2009, 01:04 PM	#61
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Zombie pirates are not the risk of reality... heck they won't show up on radar no how... It is the real life pirates that a sailing family must be prepared for... Zombie talk is actually not allowed here... PM en route. Brent

September 11, 2009, 01:06 PM	#62
zombieslayer Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,198	well, real pirates are still not going to wana be shot at with 308win. damn

September 11, 2009, 01:09 PM	#63
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Real pirates don't want to be shot at with a .22lr. It is their hopes that the target won't even pull an Olin orange flare gun out. Brent

September 11, 2009, 01:18 PM	#64
greensteelforge Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 90	You are talking about engaging a paramilitary force with a high likelihood that they have combat experience. All you will do by being armed is get yourself and your passengers and crew killed and wounded, and increase the number and types of weapons that the pirates have. Your most effective defense would be to make yourself appear to be of little to no value to them. Don't travel the dangerous parts of your trip with the boat decked to the nines, and everybody on board dressed like they have a bank account. Unless you've go armor, don't engage, an RPG is no joke (been shot at with more than a few), and anyone who thinks they can take on a well armed pack of third world killers with commercially available weapons is both foolish, and suicidal. Unarmed, you will almost certainly make it through alive, if a bit behind schedule, and lighter in the wallet. Your first shot would be about all you'd get, and it would be promptly answered by automatic rifle fire, rockets, and whatever else they have to throw at you. Forget sniping in open water, too, unless you've done it before (and allot), you won't hit anything but sky and ocean.

September 11, 2009, 01:31 PM	#65
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Green, You are 100% incorrect in this... You are very unlikely to survive! YOU AS A LIFE HAVE NO VALUE ALREADY!!! They want the vessel and stores and will not toss you over in a raft to identify them or your missing vessel to the authority. you will be shark turds in short order. It is the commercial merchant marine employees that have a "life value". This "para military force" will be 3-8 individuals in one boarding vessel of the private stolen variety... These "goons" are not trained to fight force with force... They are trained to board and terrorize the occupants into submission and kill them or take them hostage if ransom expectations are high. They are more likely to back off at the first sign of resistance and fight from a distance (reason or a .30-06) or return later (not as likely as you will likely have hailed attention from authority and naval forces)... If they do return with a back up vessel... shoot at both equally. Brent

September 12, 2009, 07:57 PM	#66
hrr6011 Junior Member Join Date: September 12, 2009 Location: Houston,Texas Posts: 7	Manonash,May God be with you.But,if you are determined to do this with the wife in tow and no escort.IMO,Use Glocks(10mm,.45,.40)full size.Tough,rust resistant,proven.Marine grade Shotguns with .00 for boarders only.HK91,FAL,M14,AR10,HK93 or M4 rifles.(at Least 2).There are cheaper versions out there.But,I stress reliability.Reliability or death.Know your weapons.Practice often.Keep them clean.Have plenty of ammo.You can get food and water .Ammo will be at a premium.And most of all mindset.This is where people live or die.If they board you will at the least be tortured and abused.Remember this.You most likely will die.Fire to kill from a distance with your rifle.If they keep coming fire at will until the assault is repelled or they board.If boarded,Use shotguns and handguns as needed from a fortified prearranged position.Remember,they are there to do you harm.You harm first without hesitation or remorse.Then vacate the premises as fast as the wind will take you. RR

September 12, 2009, 08:11 PM	#67
hrr6011 Junior Member Join Date: September 12, 2009 Location: Houston,Texas Posts: 7	Manonash,May God be with you.But,if you are determined to do this with the wife in tow and no escort.IMO,Use Glocks(10mm,.45,.40)full size.Tough,rust resistant,proven.Marine grade Shotguns with .00 for boarders only.HK91,FAL,M14,AR10,HK93 or M4 rifles.(at Least 2).There are cheaper versions out there.But,I stress reliability.Reliability or death.Know your weapons.Practice often.Keep them clean.Have plenty of ammo.You can get food and water .Ammo will be at a premium.And most of all mindset.This is where people live or die.If they board you will at the least be tortured and abused.Remember this.You most likely will die.Fire to kill from a distance with your rifle.If they keep coming fire at will until the assault is repelled or they board.If boarded,Use shotguns and handguns as needed from a fortified prearranged position.Remember,they are there to do you harm.You harm first without hesitation or remorse.Then vacate the premises as fast as the wind will take you. RR

September 12, 2009, 09:18 PM	#68
Rail Member Join Date: June 23, 2005 Posts: 36	I've some sailing experience though not a lot on open water - but a couple of friends who have and one of those has a master's ticket and ferries yachts for a living. I asked him about this and he had two comments. The first was basically, be lucky. The second was that after a couple of weeks at sea he can shoot well offhand. He uses a FAL, and having a couple myself, I concur that the reliability of military arms is important. His brother was SAS and says a bullpup is the better way to go - keeping the movement of the barrel down - but we both pointed out to him that he was forced to go with the bullpup... This guy is still at sea. The other guy sailed the Caribbean a lot and he said the waters there are perhaps worse because the likelihood of other boats is so much higher than in Malaysian waters and he worries more about the proximity of land masses. He is less concerned with Malaysia because he feels he can afford to be less laissez-fair about the traffic and immediately retrieve a rifle if something pops up. He has also had several run-ins in the leewards that were not too pleasant, ending up in hospital on one occasion. He simply said to never tell someone what your next port of call is at the club, and leave early in the morning when heading out. Other than that he bowed to the Brit (he's Rhodesian - not Zimbabwean - as he would say) on the matter of what to take along - we all attended the same boarding school in the dark continent way back. My mate's brother does have a good point though about the bullpup, and you may find that a PS90 or such, though its rounds might be small are both loaded to the gills at fifty rounds, easy to hold on target, and easier to conceal and ammo takes up less room loaded into those long mags. Again, we grew up with FALs but I have to listen to a guy with a lot of experience in a more lethal kind of existence. Good luck to you, and go for it! A night under the Southern Cross is worth a little worry. Jim

September 12, 2009, 09:28 PM	#69
Rail Member Join Date: June 23, 2005 Posts: 36	I should add that the guy with the master's ticket is a dead ringer for a blond-haired 6'6" 250 pound rugby player, so keep in mind that a FAL gets heavier by the second offhand, distance shooting, without the usual jacket and glove of a hi-power shooter - and its not like you can lean on the mast..