Shooting technique question

[Rabbitt]

Hello everyone. I have a question on pistol shooting technique.

When I watch others who have been shooting for a long time I notice that they know how to keep their pistols fairly level for follow up shots. I see that it appears that the only movement is the pistol and hands going up at the wrist.

I have been shooting for only a few years and I feel like arms are going up with the recoil and the pistol is at about a 45 degree angle from level. I have not had myself video taped while shooting so maybe it is my perception or is actually what is happening.

I have tried to not grip as tight and relax my wrists more but I am not sure this is the correct way of doing it.

I am hoping that someone may have more insight on what I need to concentrate on and be able to explain it to me.

I do understand that practice, practice, practice is what I need to do but practice what is my question.

I appreciate any answers. I find this happens with shooting both revolvers and semi-autos. The calibers I shoot go from .22 to .45

[Tactical Jackalope]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA3PJ...FLsqTQ&index=3

that's me with my Glock 19 that I just got rid of.

Tight grip, in your hands and arms. Practice shooting slow first then go faster the better you get. If you slip up..slow down again. (By slip up, I mean don't stay within the tight group)

[Rabbitt]

Thanks Constantine. Yep. That is what I am talking about. Your arms are not bouncing up from the recoil. That is what I cannot seem to get control of.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Bring your shoulders in a little more when you're aiming and shooting. Bring your head down a little more to the level of the firearm.

This nonsense of hand and arm strength being "60% 40%" or whatever they say nowadays between your favorable side being the higher number..Is just that. Nonsense.

100%-100%

Also, a lot of it is trigger control.

You gotta crawl before you walk. You gotta walk before you run. You gotta run before you sprint.


Practice slowly at first. Once you get down that range aspect of accuracy, try under stress.

The academy I was in an .40s&w was a PITA combination. lol You'll do fine.

[SgtLumpy]

Do your arms "go up" when you dry fire?

If it's happening even with a 22, it sounds like you're anticipating or subconsciously thinking you need to move your arms up.

When you shoot a revolver, try loading one less round than the cylinder will hold. ie load 5 cartridges in a 6 shooter. Spin the cyl and don't look while you close the crane. Then slowly aim and fire all six. ONE of them will be a "dud". If you move your arms on the dud, then it's a subconscious movement you're doing. If you DON'T move your arms on the dud, then you're on the right track. It's then the gun recoil that's causing the movement.


Sgt Lumpy - n0eq

[Tactical Jackalope]

^------ that's a brilliant idea. I do that with new shooters and a snap cap randomly in the magazine. My girlfriend didn't know and she held there for 30 seconds in case it was a hang fire. Then ejected the snap cap and continued firing. I praised her. Couldn't find my snap cap after but I explained why I did that and she adjusted and adapted. Also explained that in the field or CCW situations, you'd have to clear that round asap and continue engaging.


So yes. Good thing to try Rabbit!


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[Rabbitt]

Well, my arms don't go up when I dry fire but yet I haven't tried a missing round or a snap cap so can't say they wouldn't. I have had a few where the semi didn't load another round or went through trying to shoot 7 shots from a 6 shooter and I don't remember my arms going up.

I think (think being the operative word) that I am just not holding it correctly for the recoil. I don't "bounce" as much with 22 or 380 or 9mm as I do with the 45s.

But I will certainly try the snap caps. I feel it is a good idea for practice anyway.

[g.willikers]

Are you standing bolt upright or even leaning backward some, instead of slightly leaning forward, into the gun?
If so, that will cause your gun and arms to go up.
As will extending your arms too far out.
Your elbows should be bend enough to bring your arms and the gun back enough so the shoulders support them instead of the shoulders merely acting like hinges.
That allows the recoil to come back instead of up.
Also remember to bend your knees a little, to act like shock absorbers.
Take a look at the guy in the picture at the top of this page:
http://brianenos.com/

[paw080]

Hi Rabbit, I just want to point out a single issue. You said:

"I have tried to not grip as tight and relax my wrists more but I am not sure this is the correct way of doing it."

Whether you shoot single-handed or two-handed, your wrists must be very firmly

fixed. At the same time, your trigger finger should move independently of the

fixed wrist and hand hold. This may seem paradoxical but it is possible to learn

to move your trigger finger independently of your tensioned wrist. To illustrate

what I mean, grasp the pistol grip with the hand that you trigger with, tighten

your hold and stiffen your wrist. now move your trigger finger back and forth and

if you see a tendon move in your wrist, that needs to be corrected so that you

see little if any tendon movement.

Tony

[lunger]

You might try with a two hand hold raise both elbows slightly outward.Helps to lock arms and adds lateral pressure to the grip.

[chris in va]

This isn't racquetball. Your wrists need to be locked.

Pretend you are trying to control a writhing snake trying to bite you. Watch videos of competition shooters, you'll see the tendons and muscles in their arms popping out.

Now you'll get a lot more muzzle flip with smaller polymer 45's than racegun all-steel versions. There's still an element of control necessary with the larger calibers.

[Mello2u]

Rabbitt,

It is near to impossible to give coaching advice on a forum like this as we can not see what you do when firing. Your original post lacks information on how you stand, arrange your arms and hands, and how you hold your handgun. You do mention wrists (plural) and arms (plural) but that is all I can gather from your post.

The Weaver stance came about to control muzzle flip (recoil) and to get a quick controlled follow-up shot. One aspect of the Weaver Stance is the two handed hold of the handgun. The strong hand arm pushes forward as the weak hand pull back against the strong hand. It is an isometric exercise which pretensions the arms including the wrists to reduce muzzle flip. This allows faster follow-up shots.

[MrBorland]

The Weaver stance came about to control muzzle flip (recoil) and to get a quick controlled follow-up shot. One aspect of the Weaver Stance is the two handed hold of the handgun. The strong hand arm pushes forward as the weak hand pull back against the strong hand. It is an isometric exercise which pretensions the arms including the wrists to reduce muzzle flip. This allows faster follow-up shots.

I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about stance, but the Weaver stance assumes you can and ought to prevent muzzle rise by physically overpowering it in the first place. But what's been found since the Weaver stance developed is that it's not the muzzle flip per se that slows followup shots - the muzzle rises and falls quicker than most realize. What slows down followup shots is when the muzzle doesn't return to it's starting place, in which case, the shooter has to take the time to figure out where the front sight is and how to get it back (assuming they're even looking at the front sight). This is a grip issue, and the fastest shooters (e.g. USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challenge) universally agree a proper neutral grip is what allows the muzzle to return consistently. Sight picture is still important, of course, but it only takes the shooters an instant to re-confirm it before getting off the next shot.

A neutral grip is firm, but it's neutral when one hand isn't in opposition to the other (check out BE's pic in the Enos link above). IOW, remove one hand, and the gun shouldn't move. It's easiest to achieve a neutral grip in an isosceles stance, which is why you'll see all top competitive action shooters using an isosceles.

I agree it's tough to offer advice without seeing you shoot, but my generic advice is to stand squared to the target, slightly lean forward & bend knees, then grip high, firm, and neutrally. Confirm your neutral grip by watching the front sight to see if it's coming back to it's original position. Once you get your neutral grip established, just break the followup shot the instant you confirm sight alignment. To be done well, it'll require that your visual cues, your brain, and your trigger control are all in sync, which requires lots of practice.

[1stmar]

Make sure the hand is as high on the grip as you can get it, use an isosceles stance with a little bend in the elbows, make sure you have your balance and weight should be a bit forward. Firm grip especially with the non trigger hand. The elbows should not be locked.

[darkgael]

break the followup shot the instant you confirm sight alignment. To be done well, it'll require that your visual cues, your brain......

Good advice. The difficulty is, as with any shot, trigger control. You have to break the shot without moving the sights and that, especially in sustained fire, requires a lot of practice......correct practice.
I am always amazed at how easy it is to jerk a shot, even in the last millimeter of the trigger squeeze.
Pete

[pete2]

Grip the gun as tight as you can, if it starts to shake it's too tight, let up til your hand quits shaking. The tighter the better, lock the wrist and elbow. The tight hold is very important. Also, grip the gun the same every time. Practice.

[Verbal Clint]

Try applying a little more pressure with your weak hand. Also, try adjusting your thumb positioning on your strong hand to make room for your weak hand on the gun. My carry weapon is a 1911 and I actually began resting my strong thumb just beside the safety, which freed up nearly the entire weak hand side of the gun. Just started doing that the last time at the range, and started shooting MUCH better double taps and quick-acquisitions.

[Rabbitt]

Wow. Thanks all.

I am sorry I have not been able to get back out here until now. I see a lot of good info and understand a bit better now how difficult it is to give good advice from such a generic question.

I have not been out to shoot lately but I have a number of things to concentrate on along with getting a friend to take some photos and videos so I can study what I am doing.

Thanks for all the advice gang.

Rabbitt

[mete]

Every person is different and has to find the best way. I tried different methods and picked the one that was best --then after a permanent elbow injury my way is a cross between two !
For multiple shots you must not have the gun move in the hand .For me that's no problem for 9mm, 40, 45acp with locked wrists.For 44mag I change -bending my elbows and using the elbows as shock absorbers without the gun moving in my hand.Practice, practice !!

[Nathan]

I think I have a different take on the neutral grip thing which might help you.

First, pick a stance and refine it. That is where you want to be. Changing stance to a new one when told to is a bad habit to get into with little return. I chased that dog for a while!

What you are looking for is what I call refining the recoil stroke. For starters, look at a GOOD mentor or professional shooter and master their grip. Grip is key. A nice firm grip without shake.

Then work on stroking the trigger in dry fire. The key is a firm grip with a trigger stroke that doesn't move your grip. When starting out, this is a slow increasing surprise break. Master that. Then take it to the next level. Squeeze and know when it will break, exactly. Then faster and know the exact break point. Now, go back to this and focusing on the sights. Break with the sights dead on that light switch or other dryfire target.

Now, use your grip and trigger mastery on slow dryfire. Wow! Are you shooting groups now!

Now, back to recoil stroke. Using what you know, lower the gun slightly below your line of sight and fire 5-10 med speed rounds in a string. See where the gun is recoiling. Move around grip pressure, grip, shoulders , etc until it recoils straight back. Now get back on the sights and watch the front sight bounce up and back down. Adjust grip pressure, arm pressure, etc, until your elbows bend under recoil and a slight tricep push gets your front sight on target. Keep pushing and shooting faster!

Next, using this muscle memory, quit shooting 10 and shift to 5 and then 3 shot strings. Finally, work to master doubles. The doubles will take muscle memory and letting the front sight guide you to trigger the second round.

The key is the recoil stroke being consistent and straight back.

[WVsig]

Take a look at this video.... Todd Jarrett knows what he is doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

[MarkDozier]

The best answer of all. Get a coach. be it a professional shotting coach, an experinced shooter who like to teach or train,
myslef for example. I can have you shooting well in about 2 hours. if you listen. Most good coaches can.
Well being putting good groups on paper at 10- 25 feet. While not impressive distances FUNDAMENTALS are the best place to start. Just like golf, you get the short putt right before you start making longer putts.

[Rabbitt]

Well once again I am saying thanks.

WVsig. Thanks for the link. Makes a bit more sense to see what others had said to do.
While out there I also found this one and I did like the way he explained it in a bit more detail or something I could relate to.

MarkDoizer. That advice is something I do need to follow. Thanks.

[SgtLumpy]

As some have suggested, I believe one needs to find a way that works for THEM. I do NOT believe that I should hold a pistol, or any other hand held object, the same way Joe Blow or anyone else does, master class or not. Everyone is built a little different.

This kind of concept comes up all the time with guitar players. So-And-So says "You absolutely have to have your thumb 'here' or you can't play well". Whenever that kind of absolute, one sided opinion surfaces, I invite them to go have a look at those guys that are missing fingers, thumbs or even arms who can play the heck out of their instruments.

I don't have to use the same stance that Jerry Mic or Todd or Col Cooper uses/used. I can choose one of those, modify one, combine more than one, or throw them all out and develop my own.

A GOOD coach, if you have such a luxury, SHOULD evaluate what you're doing and suggest modifications based on what might resolve problems you're displaying.

A BAD coach, will tell you that you must stand this way or that, hold your thumbs here or there etc, based NOT on what YOU need but on what THEY do.

Discover what works for YOU. All that counts is holes where you want them.


Sgt Lumpy - n0eq