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Old June 27, 2016, 07:15 PM   #51
K_Mac
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IMHO how one expresses one's sexuality and the 2A and the RKBA and the Right to Self Defense are separate and distinct issues. There is no Right Not To Be Stigmatized and respect must be earned, it is not an automatic given.
SIGSHR, the Constitution and Bill of Rights does give the right for everyone to be treated the same under the law. One's sexuality, race, religion, or ethnicity has nothing to with the 2A unless any of those things causes one to be stigmatized and discriminated against. There was a time not long ago when being black was stigmatized and an acceptable reason to exclude a person from all kinds of Constitutional rights. I say a gay person does have the same right to not be stigmatized, i.e., marked with some sort of disgrace or infamy just for being gay, as I have the right not to be stigmatized just for being Christian.
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Old June 27, 2016, 07:18 PM   #52
Glenn E. Meyer
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We are starting to wander into the issues of evaluating sexuality once again.

Whether a group is stigmatized or have a right not to be stigmatized is not really relevant to us. TFL doesn't want to get into a back and forth over personal behaviors as seen in the FAQ.

What is relevant is that 49 Americans died. We need to support any American who wants to be able to defend themselves. If you want to support a specific group in achieving that goal - that is to be applauded. We are strongly inclusive of all those who want to be able to defend themselves.

So unless we get back on track of how to accomplish this, we are headed for a close.
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Old June 28, 2016, 07:10 AM   #53
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Two 5/4 decisions by SCOTUS have given you the right to have a gun and marry who you want.
I get your point but take issue with this sentence. It may sound like knit picking, but our rights do not come from SCOTUS or any other branch of government. I take issue because too many of our voting citizens think that they do.
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Old June 28, 2016, 07:39 AM   #54
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Two 5/4 decisions by SCOTUS have given you the right to have a gun and marry who you want.
While nits are being picked, the SCOTUS didn't grant a right to "marry who you want". In most states, you still can't do that if you are already married, closely related, or the one you want to marry is under age.

The Obergefell decision requires every state to disregard conventional gender/sex restrictions in marital law. Equating the SCOTUS decision to a right recognised as belonging to every free englishmen prior to the the revolution, and explicitly set forth in the Constitution is a bit of a stretch.

Bringing more people around to value the legal right of self defense is a laudable goal, though the catalyst for this recent recognition is sad. Delving into group identity politics isn't necessary for that, either in the positive or the negative.
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Old June 28, 2016, 08:53 AM   #55
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I have a number of friends and family that identify with the LGBTQ community. The majority of them fully support gun owners rights and are gun owners themselves.

I shoot sporting clays with a LGBTQ friend and he regularly smashes 45/50 clays. With a pistol or revolver, he's lights-out awesome. He's not giving up his guns anytime soon and I wouldn't want to be the one that tries to take them from him either.
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Old June 28, 2016, 02:52 PM   #56
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Equal treatment under the law and being stigmatized are two different things, IMHO, as an example of the latter I would cite someone who is barred from a shooting range because they refuse to follow the rules, are inconsiderate of others, etc. Is someone who refuses to follow any social rules to be treated with respect when they have none for others ? If the moderators close or delete a post because they consider it improper, does that show lack of respect ? Getting back to the original topic, I consider Self Defense to be a fundamental right and people who wish to engage in shooting activites are welcome provided they follow the rules, one of which is respect for others.
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Old June 28, 2016, 03:34 PM   #57
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I think what most are trying to say, but are afraid to say, is when it comes to shooting and firearms, leave your sexuality - whatever it may be, home. It's simply irrelevant. Making people feel uncomfortable because of anything sexual in a setting where people are using or handling guns is a distraction and is rude behavior. Same thing applies to heterosexuals - no one wants to see a man and woman flirting during a training session or on the range firing line. It's just not the place for that.
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Old June 28, 2016, 03:37 PM   #58
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Take that one step further - also leave your religious and political beliefs at home as well. Nothing starts more fights and wars than those two areas.
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Old June 28, 2016, 03:40 PM   #59
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In my opinion it is of utmost importance that we all do our best to be ambassadors of the gun culture. What I mean by that is that we must do our best to be reasonable, polite, and inviting towards those who aren't Pro-2A or aren't as Pro-2A as we are, and especially so towards social groups that aren't typically pro gun. We have to invite people from all demographics out to the range, show them that we aren't what the media portrays, and show them the fun, the history, and benefits of being a gun owner. White, black, Hispanic, LGBT, Asian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, rich or poor. It does not matter. The only way the gun culture survives is if we become as inclusive and inviting as possible and if people know the truth about guns. We can't just be the grumpy old white guy reading American Rifleman and griping about things on the internet anymore. We have to be RKBA ambassadors.
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Old June 28, 2016, 06:18 PM   #60
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We can't just be the grumpy old white guy reading American Rifleman and griping about things on the internet
Now you're starting to get personal...

SIGSHR marking or judging a person for bad behavior is very different than doing so based on race, creed, sexual preference or any other protected right. I completely agree that discussion of these things are best left outside of the range or club, and everyone has the responsibility to treat others with respect. That is an oversimplification though. We have to be careful that our social rules, codes, and behavior are as inclusive as we say they are.

The LGBT lobby is a powerful force. Having it on the pro-2A side would be a good thing, even if it makes us a little uncomfortable IMHO.
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Old June 28, 2016, 06:20 PM   #61
FITASC
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The LGBT lobby is a powerful force. Having it on the pro-2A side would be a good thing, even if it makes us a little uncomfortable IMHO.
They would definitely be an asset against the liberal Dems...........and a welcome addition to our side of this issue
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Old June 28, 2016, 07:12 PM   #62
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Hey, I'm one of those Grumpy Old White Guys which is just the same as the grumpy old black guy, the grumpy old Asian guy or anyone else that's worked 50 years and goes to bed at night with my legs and feet hurting and then wakes in the morning and them old legs and feet are still hurting.

Give me my Coffee, tea, Scotch and soda or Coke-Cola and leave me alone. We don't have time for trivial stuff like hey Mister your dog peed in my yard or your cats chasing the birds out of my feeder. Where's my Metamucil!
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Old June 28, 2016, 07:38 PM   #63
FITASC
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Give me my Coffee, tea, Scotch and soda or Coke-Cola and leave me alone. We don't have time for trivial stuff like hey Mister your dog peed in my yard or your cats chasing the birds out of my feeder. Where's my Metamucil
But we DO need to make the time to make these folks comfortable with us.
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Old June 28, 2016, 10:40 PM   #64
Tucker 1371
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Now you're starting to get personal...
I guess what I was getting at with that comment was that we need to buck the stereotype (even if some of us fit it). My bad

I think when a lot of folks outside the gun culture think about us they picture Walt Kawalski (Clint Eastwood) in Gran Torino and that's not what we need.
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Old June 28, 2016, 11:17 PM   #65
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As I mentioned earlier, I do have a brother that is gay, he is a shooter, an NRA member and a clinical Dr. of Psychology. I am heterosexual, married with children and grandchildren and am perfectly comfortable in his company.

I do not have a problem with the LGBT community other than those that make a big deal out of it and feel they have to keep it in your face.

I also do not care about celebrity personalities, Jenner, the Kardashians or any of the others. I do not know them, will never meet them so why should I need to know every aspect of their personal lives? Their lives and lifestyles do not effect me or my life in any way shape or form.

All I can do is look at the people in my personal life and judge them individually. After all they are individuals 1st. I treat people the way I want to be treated in return.
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Old June 29, 2016, 09:07 AM   #66
Evan Thomas
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And on that gracious note, I think it's it's time to close this before it gets too repetitive. Thanks, everyone, for a polite and thoughtful discussion.
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