Ruger .44 carbine sporter question?

bamaranger · December 13, 2023, 11:24 AM

I have long been a fan of the old model (tube feed) .44 carbine, despite it's quirks and find it enough gun for the type of deer hunting I do with a rifle. One of the quirks on my carbines is so-so accuracy. Much of this is related to a pair of issues. One is the barrel twist rate an there is not much can be done about that, at least affordably, other than experiment with bullet weights.

The other accuracy robbing feature is how the rifle is bedded, or more correctly, their lack of bedding. The barreled action is held in the stock by a hooked receiver fitting in a mortise/action block at the rear and secured up front by a barrel band to the forend. I read that arrangement is much like the WWII M-1 .30 carbine. I think much of the accuracy issues I am working on presently with my scoped .44 is related to wonky barrel band tension and torque on the receiver due to a wonky receiver block /stock fit. My .44 is displaying a vertical stringing issue after coming out of the safe on "vacation for a couple of seasons. Working from a magazine article from 1974 (provided by one of our members) I have begun the glass bedding process for the stubborn carbine. But the process has raised two questions in my mind.

1) In the beginning of production of the .44 carbine there were several variations, including a "Sporter", with a finger grooved stock and NO BARREL BAND. So ....how was the barreled action attached to the stock? Seems to me their would almost have to be a forend screw running up into the gas block or a barrel lug to hold things together up front. I don't intend to go that far modifying my carbine, but it would likely solve the wonky barrel band issue. My onliine search yields only parts diagrams for the "Standard" barrel band model. If somebody has a "Sporter" can you describe how things were attached up front?

2) Since the .44 carbine is assembled much like the M-1 .30 carbine, and the M1 carbine could be shot in certain target competition ( seems like I read that) , might there be some accuracy tricks for the M1 carbine that could serve as ideas for plumbing my bullet hose?

taylorce1 · December 13, 2023, 01:29 PM

I can't answer your qestions.

However, I do have a Ruger RS .44 Carbine (factory peep sight) with the tube magazine. I was wanting to hunt deer with it this year, but ran out of time with work and other commitments to get it ready. I was shooting about 12" low at 50 yards, now it's 6" high. I'll work on it and have it ready to go for OK deer season next year.

I'm getting about 1.5" group with Winchester 240 grain FNSP ammunition at 50. That's good enough for me to be happy with it once I'm 2-3" high at 50. I can't imagine that bullet not being good enough for deer. I'd like to try some 225 FTX bullets as well. I know some people have told me they shoot 300 grain bullets in their carbines with success, I just don't see a need for anything that heavy.

Shadow9mm · December 13, 2023, 07:15 PM

deleted

bamaranger · December 14, 2023, 09:53 PM

Taylorce,
Your carbine pulled the same stunt that mine did this season, checking zero yielded bullets landing 4-5" high at 100 yds, then vertically stringing any attempt to to dial in corrections. Suspecting an ammo problem I loaded a batch of 200 gr XTP's very carefully and shot again at 50 yds. Result was a group, aligned vertically 3" in length, from point of aim and stringing low.

Next I pulled the scope, checked base screws, checked ring screws and not finding any issues, reassembled. The glass is a Leupold Vari-X ii 1-4x, with a chunky German #1 reticle from the custom shop (when they would do such things, much the pity). Then I began to consider the bedding issue.

An article provided by a member a couple of years back from the "Rifleman'" dated 1974 discusses , bedding and accurizing the old .44 carbines. The author's gun wouldn't group worth a hoot. His solution was to reduce barrel /receiver pressure by opening the stock channel where necessary, then glass bedding the gas block and forend barrel channel. He also shimmed the barrel band in an attempt to keep the barrel from wallowing about even though bedded. He discussed bedding the mortised action block back where the hook fits in at the rear of the action, but did not do so on his rifle.

In examining my carbine, I noted that the barrel band was not particularly tight, even when cranked down. I also observed that when returning the barreled action to the stock, that the action/barrel did not drop freely into place, but binded vertically at about 25 degrees and had to be levered home. Not with a lot of force, but there was definitely torque on the assembly when the barrel band was installed. So......

I did a bit of sanding along the sides of the sides of the stock channel to reduce contact on the barrel and along the action. I loosened the stock bolt, cut a horseshoe shaped shim from a bank card and slipped it behind the action block, then lowered the barreled action into the stock while the block was loose. I then slipped the barrel band on to hold the assembly in place, then tightend the stock bolt to draw the action block home while aligned with the hook. The result was the barreled action slipped into the stock channel with minimal tension, encountering resistance only at the very last bit of its travel. Little levering or torque required. Finally, I cut a second shim and placed it in the barrel channel ahead of the barrel band. It took a couple of tries to cut one the right size, too big the band would not go on, too small, and the band would not snug up to satisfaction. With the band and barrel snugged up tight, time to shoot.....

and shazaam! Five rounds cut one ragged hole a little over an inch in diameter at 50 yds but a bit high. I made some elevation adjustment and shot again, the bullet landing exactly at point of aim. I then switched to the 6in. steel plates on my range with a full mag, and wacked every one about as fast as I could line them up and shoot. OK. I will glass the shims in place after deer season, but hunt the carbine as is for now.

I switched to lighter bullets early on with the carbine. I've posted before that the 1-38" twist is contrary to how revolvers are twisted 1-16" (?) and contemporary carbines are now twisted 1-20". Lighter bullets group better in my carbines. The 180 XTP will kill deer, but is frangible up close and really rated by Hornady for .44 special revolver velocities. The 200 gr XTP is carbine rated and has held together on deer for me, and a few have exited on shots past 50 yds where veloctiy and thus expansion have dropped. I've not shot 240's in a long time, and 265's were an absolute joke. I'll add that my Dad shot 240's in his 1970's era M94, and all were pass thru's and dead deer from any angle. The M94 wasn't all that accurate either, but 240's were all we could find, perhaps all that were made back in the day.

PM me if you or anybody else is interested in a copy of that article re bedding the .44

taylorce1 · December 15, 2023, 11:37 AM

I think you misunderstood, I just haven't adjusted the sights properly. It wasn't shifting POI problems due to bedding or changes in humidity with a wood stock. It was shooting low, and then I adjusted the sight too far the other direction and I only had 15 rounds with me that day. So I ran out of ammunition before I got it where I wanted it, and never got a chance to take it out again.

bamaranger · December 15, 2023, 09:40 PM

OK, best of luck with your Ruger. I'd be curious as to how your carbine groups the 240's?

bamaranger · December 15, 2023, 09:42 PM

OK, I see 1.5" at 50yd as stated in your first post.

bamaranger · January 11, 2024, 08:57 PM

I closely studied a photo on Gunbroker of a .44 carbine mannlicher version (factory). Now the mannlicher does not have a barrel band either, and it does have a nosecap. But I suspect the barrel is anchored in the same fashion in both the Sporter and the Mannlicher version.

So...., on the forearm is a crossbolt, and I'm willing to bet it passes thru a lug under the barrel.

December 13, 2023, 01:29 PM	#2
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,250	I can't answer your qestions. However, I do have a Ruger RS .44 Carbine (factory peep sight) with the tube magazine. I was wanting to hunt deer with it this year, but ran out of time with work and other commitments to get it ready. I was shooting about 12" low at 50 yards, now it's 6" high. I'll work on it and have it ready to go for OK deer season next year. I'm getting about 1.5" group with Winchester 240 grain FNSP ammunition at 50. That's good enough for me to be happy with it once I'm 2-3" high at 50. I can't imagine that bullet not being good enough for deer. I'd like to try some 225 FTX bullets as well. I know some people have told me they shoot 300 grain bullets in their carbines with success, I just don't see a need for anything that heavy. __________________ NRA Life Member

December 13, 2023, 07:15 PM	#3
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,977	deleted __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload. Last edited by Shadow9mm; December 13, 2023 at 07:35 PM.

December 14, 2023, 09:53 PM	#4
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,314	good to go Taylorce, Your carbine pulled the same stunt that mine did this season, checking zero yielded bullets landing 4-5" high at 100 yds, then vertically stringing any attempt to to dial in corrections. Suspecting an ammo problem I loaded a batch of 200 gr XTP's very carefully and shot again at 50 yds. Result was a group, aligned vertically 3" in length, from point of aim and stringing low. Next I pulled the scope, checked base screws, checked ring screws and not finding any issues, reassembled. The glass is a Leupold Vari-X ii 1-4x, with a chunky German #1 reticle from the custom shop (when they would do such things, much the pity). Then I began to consider the bedding issue. An article provided by a member a couple of years back from the "Rifleman'" dated 1974 discusses , bedding and accurizing the old .44 carbines. The author's gun wouldn't group worth a hoot. His solution was to reduce barrel /receiver pressure by opening the stock channel where necessary, then glass bedding the gas block and forend barrel channel. He also shimmed the barrel band in an attempt to keep the barrel from wallowing about even though bedded. He discussed bedding the mortised action block back where the hook fits in at the rear of the action, but did not do so on his rifle. In examining my carbine, I noted that the barrel band was not particularly tight, even when cranked down. I also observed that when returning the barreled action to the stock, that the action/barrel did not drop freely into place, but binded vertically at about 25 degrees and had to be levered home. Not with a lot of force, but there was definitely torque on the assembly when the barrel band was installed. So...... I did a bit of sanding along the sides of the sides of the stock channel to reduce contact on the barrel and along the action. I loosened the stock bolt, cut a horseshoe shaped shim from a bank card and slipped it behind the action block, then lowered the barreled action into the stock while the block was loose. I then slipped the barrel band on to hold the assembly in place, then tightend the stock bolt to draw the action block home while aligned with the hook. The result was the barreled action slipped into the stock channel with minimal tension, encountering resistance only at the very last bit of its travel. Little levering or torque required. Finally, I cut a second shim and placed it in the barrel channel ahead of the barrel band. It took a couple of tries to cut one the right size, too big the band would not go on, too small, and the band would not snug up to satisfaction. With the band and barrel snugged up tight, time to shoot..... and shazaam! Five rounds cut one ragged hole a little over an inch in diameter at 50 yds but a bit high. I made some elevation adjustment and shot again, the bullet landing exactly at point of aim. I then switched to the 6in. steel plates on my range with a full mag, and wacked every one about as fast as I could line them up and shoot. OK. I will glass the shims in place after deer season, but hunt the carbine as is for now. I switched to lighter bullets early on with the carbine. I've posted before that the 1-38" twist is contrary to how revolvers are twisted 1-16" (?) and contemporary carbines are now twisted 1-20". Lighter bullets group better in my carbines. The 180 XTP will kill deer, but is frangible up close and really rated by Hornady for .44 special revolver velocities. The 200 gr XTP is carbine rated and has held together on deer for me, and a few have exited on shots past 50 yds where veloctiy and thus expansion have dropped. I've not shot 240's in a long time, and 265's were an absolute joke. I'll add that my Dad shot 240's in his 1970's era M94, and all were pass thru's and dead deer from any angle. The M94 wasn't all that accurate either, but 240's were all we could find, perhaps all that were made back in the day. PM me if you or anybody else is interested in a copy of that article re bedding the .44

December 15, 2023, 11:37 AM	#5
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,250	I think you misunderstood, I just haven't adjusted the sights properly. It wasn't shifting POI problems due to bedding or changes in humidity with a wood stock. It was shooting low, and then I adjusted the sight too far the other direction and I only had 15 rounds with me that day. So I ran out of ammunition before I got it where I wanted it, and never got a chance to take it out again. __________________ NRA Life Member

December 15, 2023, 09:40 PM	#6
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,314	understood OK, best of luck with your Ruger. I'd be curious as to how your carbine groups the 240's?

December 13, 2023, 11:24 AM	#1
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,314	Ruger .44 carbine sporter question? I have long been a fan of the old model (tube feed) .44 carbine, despite it's quirks and find it enough gun for the type of deer hunting I do with a rifle. One of the quirks on my carbines is so-so accuracy. Much of this is related to a pair of issues. One is the barrel twist rate an there is not much can be done about that, at least affordably, other than experiment with bullet weights. The other accuracy robbing feature is how the rifle is bedded, or more correctly, their lack of bedding. The barreled action is held in the stock by a hooked receiver fitting in a mortise/action block at the rear and secured up front by a barrel band to the forend. I read that arrangement is much like the WWII M-1 .30 carbine. I think much of the accuracy issues I am working on presently with my scoped .44 is related to wonky barrel band tension and torque on the receiver due to a wonky receiver block /stock fit. My .44 is displaying a vertical stringing issue after coming out of the safe on "vacation for a couple of seasons. Working from a magazine article from 1974 (provided by one of our members) I have begun the glass bedding process for the stubborn carbine. But the process has raised two questions in my mind. 1) In the beginning of production of the .44 carbine there were several variations, including a "Sporter", with a finger grooved stock and NO BARREL BAND. So ....how was the barreled action attached to the stock? Seems to me their would almost have to be a forend screw running up into the gas block or a barrel lug to hold things together up front. I don't intend to go that far modifying my carbine, but it would likely solve the wonky barrel band issue. My onliine search yields only parts diagrams for the "Standard" barrel band model. If somebody has a "Sporter" can you describe how things were attached up front? 2) Since the .44 carbine is assembled much like the M-1 .30 carbine, and the M1 carbine could be shot in certain target competition ( seems like I read that) , might there be some accuracy tricks for the M1 carbine that could serve as ideas for plumbing my bullet hose? Last edited by bamaranger; December 13, 2023 at 11:26 AM. Reason: grammer/spelling

December 15, 2023, 09:42 PM	#7
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,314	reread OK, I see 1.5" at 50yd as stated in your first post.

January 11, 2024, 08:57 PM	#8
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,314	the answer.....maybe I closely studied a photo on Gunbroker of a .44 carbine mannlicher version (factory). Now the mannlicher does not have a barrel band either, and it does have a nosecap. But I suspect the barrel is anchored in the same fashion in both the Sporter and the Mannlicher version. So...., on the forearm is a crossbolt, and I'm willing to bet it passes thru a lug under the barrel.