reloading for accuracy ?

[rebs]

When adding the powder to the case is it necessary to be exact to the grain or is a variation of 1/10th gr close enough ? I am asking about both rifle and pistol.

[jwrowland77]

In rifle, 1/10th of a grain is so small compared to 45-60 grains, that it really doesn't make much of a difference.

Can't help you on pistol as I don't load pistol for accuracy. However, 1/10th of a grain in pistol is such a higher percentage of the overall charge.

[YARDDOG(1)]

As long as your below the max charge (Check manual),, Depending on powders & OAL, You should be fine..

Otherwise, work your loads up to max. Be carful to check a few manuals ; )
Y/D

[YARDDOG(1)]

Deleted,

[1stmar]

You won't see a difference on 1/10 of a grain, possibly (likely) 2/10 of a grain depending on powder and charge.

[LE-28]

My rifle loads have always been measured to the exact amount so I can't say what deviation 1/10gr would have, I would expect absolutely none. There's that much error in all the scales we use.

On pistol rounds I have never seen a difference in accuracy of only 1/10gr deviation. My handloads for all my hand guns are usually within 1/10gr.

Not +or - but usually +1 -0 so I can speak to this. No you won't see any difference at all in accuracy.

Most variances in powder measures are more than this. If you have a variance of .3gr or more you will notice that if you are using a Ransom rest.

The variances in neck tension, and OAL from round to round will play more of a role then the 1/10gr variance of the powder.

[rebs]

Thank you LE-28 that is the answer I was looking for. I do not load max loads, I load for accuracy and my most accurate loads are less than max loads.
I load 4.2 of bullseye for a 200 gr lswc in my colt gold cup, so if I understand right, 4.1 to 4.3 wouldn't make a difference in accuracy. Right ?

[totaldla]

1/10 of a grain is meaningless with slow rifle powders - most workups are done with .3-.5 grain increments. So folks who are tricking powder are sometimes just wasting their time over just dropping it from the dispenser.

1/10 of a grain is meaningful with a fast pistol powder accuracy-wise. But since most pistol ammo just needs minute-of-pop-can accuracy, dropping from a +/-.2gr dispenser is good enough as long as the variance is factored into the safe load range.

[Nick_C_S]

My experience with Pistols - particularly 38 Special and 45 ACP. . .

1/10 of a grain can (barely) make a difference on the chronograph; but it won't likely change point of impact.

What I see happening is as you move up in a load recipe - using 45 ACP 200g LSWC as an example - there will be points where they are more accurate than others. Starting at 4.0g W231; I noticed that they get real accurate around 4.6g's. Then they seem to drift around a bit at 4.8g's. But then get accurate again at 5.0g's. Then they seem to drift around a bit at 5.4g's. (Never tried beyond that - I backed down the recipe to 5.0g's.)

No, I don't have pictures, charts, or graphs. This is just me sharing my 30 years and thousands of rounds of experience.

[LE-28]

I load 4.2 of bullseye for a 200 gr lswc in my colt gold cup, so if I understand right, 4.1 to 4.3 wouldn't make a difference in accuracy. Right ?

4.1-4.3 could make a difference if you are the edge of an accuracy node. Like Nick_C_S said there are accuracy nodes all through a work up and if your working within one, .1 of a grain won't make any difference. If your on the edge of an accuracy node, .2 of a grain could.

.3 of a grain you will definitely notice. I'll feel the variance in the recoil also and it's really annoying to me.

[Nick_C_S]

"Accuracy node."

I didn't know there was a name for it. But I do know it's real, because I've experienced it first-hand, before anybody told me there was such a thing.

I learn a lot here.

[4runnerman]

I beg to differ with people here. 1/10 a grain in a 338 or a 308,not a big deal. 1/10 grain in 223-can be. Most scales will give accuracy to 1/10 a grain now you are gong to add 1/10 more to that?. Now you are at 2/10ths grain off. My 223 loads are 25.5, not 25.4 and not 25.6. You can't fix the scale error,but you can fix yours. There was a post going in here a while ago about deviation and 15 to 25 FPS was good as it gets. My loads are with in 10 fps. At 100 yards no big deal at 1000 and 1200 BIG DEAL. Just my 2 cents worth.
I agree with the neck tension statement also. There are so many things that come into play with accuracy ( Repeatable Accuracy ). Reloading is fun and relaxing,Take your time step by step and see the results. You will be the better shot for it in the long run.

[Jim243]

On rifle rounds I am a fanatic on no variance at all not even 0.1 of a grain. If it is not right on, I throw it back into the hopper and drop another load.



On pistol, I could care less, if I hit the bulls eye within 2 inches I am a happy camper.



On rifle, I expect one bullet to go through the previous shot's hole.

Jim

[LE-28]

I have never seen a set of scales for reloading that boasts being accurate to 1/10 of a grain. It always 1/10 +or -. That's can total 3/10s of a grain.

Most of us consider beam scales to be the most accurate but there are a lot of things that affect a beam scales accuracy. Out of level, dirt in the pivot points, magnet loosing it's magnetism, or if you use an old Redding #1 like I do, how much oil is in the oil well for the damper and that oils viscosity.
Now factor in especially with fine pistol powders, how many flakes make a 1/10of a grain and are you on the leading edge or trailing edge of your target weight. Factor all these things in at the same time and the inaccuracy of our beam scales is more than what we realize.
We also never get them calibrated.

That's why beam scale mfgs advertise 3/10 error factor on their products.

Anyone using a beam scale can be working with a 3/10gr error factor whether they realize it or not. We still make as accurate or more accurate ammunition than most factory ammo if we do our jobs.
I do everything in my power to keep my charges within 2/10s of a grain, that's +1 -0. but it is almost impossible to do sometimes. We think we are but we really aren't.

The one thing I like about my electronic powder dispenser is that if it dispenses over the target weight, it will error out telling me it over. If it is accurate to +1 -1 the "over max" fault will help take care of the +1 variance anyways. That gets me back down to +1 -0 depending on it's accuracy.

My point is that their are to many other variables enter into building ammo like, neck tension, OAL, bullet weight variances, internal volume of the case, and a whole host of other things play a much more important roll in making accurate ammunition than whether we are + or - a 1/10 of a grain off our target weight.

One good thing with beam and electronics is the repeatability is horrendously better than drop measures.

In my opinion there are to many other variables like neck tension, OAL, internal volume of a case, variances in bullet weight, and so on, that will have a much more profound effect on accuracy than 2/10s of a grain of powder variance whether pistol, revolver or rifle.

[Nick_C_S]

. . . ^^ Excellent read. ^^ Thank you LE-28.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by LE-28

It always 1/10 +or -. That's can total 3/10s of a grain.

+ or - 0.1gr is an extreme spread of 0.2gr, not a total of 0.3gr. No two charges should be more than 0.2gr apart, worst case. Plus, scales are not generally just sort of "anywhere in that range" for every load cycle. If they're off from the indicated amount by a significant digit, they're usually off a fixed amount, like 0.1gr at 50gr.

The Chargemaster has been tested and verified by a member of our forum against a very precise (very expensive) laboratory scale. His test showed the Chargemaster to be consistent with 0.04gr, IIRC I can't find the thread at the moment.

However, I agree that there are variables that are MUCH more important than precise charge weight. Actually, the variance in the flame of the best primers in the world causes more differences than a few 1/10gr powder variance.

[Mike / Tx]

You know the older I get the smarter my pop gets, I sure wished he was still around to tell him that.

When I was growing up and learning how to load my own, he would watch me fiddle with getting that "last" kernel of powder in the scale to get it "right" on that tiny line. He finally told me that in 30-06 sized cases with medium to slow powders I would never notice even .5 gr difference from one shot to the next.

I do know that I have noticed this in several rifles since then though. But to his credit, we never loaded to top end, we were shooting mainly milsurp rifles like the 03A3, and our optics were probably not even close to being up to snuff, but it was what we had and we put meat in the freezer every year with them. Most of our shots were 100yds or less as well.

I do load a bit tighter than that, but in most cases there still isn't a huge difference in .02 of a grain between one shot and the next with all the other issues one might have confronting them as mentioned above.

[1stmar]

I used to do the same thing, every charge was exact. With auto dispenser and scale I'm still pretty precise, I dble weigh just about every charge (digital then beam) because it doesn't cost me anything in time. I can do it while the next charge is being dispensed. But if they are within 1/10 either way, I use it. .5 grains may be noticeable. I think it's somewhere between .3 and .5. Probably a percentage of the overall charge. .5 on a 50bmg is probably not significant but on 223 it would be

[rebs]

Thank you guys for all the replies

[T. O'Heir]

Please reduce the size of your pictures. Big pictures can cause a very long loading time for this page.
I'm with 4runnerman. 1/10 of a grain can change a group size, but going up by .1 grain is a rifle load tweaking technique. Most handgun loads go up by that much anyway.
"...would never notice even .5 gr difference..." Your da wasn't exactly correct. When I was working up the load for my '03A4, the group suddenly slammed to one hole with .5 more of IMR4064 and a 168. An '03A3 likely isn't capable of that though. Oh and it took an hour to get the stupid grin off my face. snicker.

[wogpotter]

Here is my experience from a recent test I did with a new (to me) press that automatically drops powder as I cycle it.
I loaded 2 "lots" of rifle brass, all identical as I could make them with one exception. Powder charge was 40.2 Gr of H335.
Lot 1 was just dropped from the measure as the press felt it should have been. It varied by 3/10 of a grain. About what I'd been expecting & the reason I did the test.
Lot 2 was scooped & trickled to exactly the weight, even a 1/10 variation was discarded.
Lot 1 had an extreme spread of 27 FPS & grouped into 6" for 10 rounds at 200yds.
Lot 2had 39 FPS & 6.5".

Based on that I don't think kits critical in the real world as the thrown charges with the bigger variation actually out performed the "more precise" test. Admittedly it was a small sample run & if I did it again I wouldn't be surprised to find the results reversed.

[Hook686]

What percentage variance do you have with weight of bullets, with dimensions of bullets, with weight of cases, with diameter of cases, with seating depth, with OAL and with primer insert depth ? Is there moisture in the powder ? What temperature and barometric pressure exist when you load the round ? Are you taking into consideration altitude that you are reloading at ? How accurately do you think you can control this process ?

[wogpotter]

Its just one more variable that you can control.
If I'm loading a "Premium" batch I weigh & measure cases, bullets & powder, I ream all primer pockets & uniform the flash holes & check internal case volumes & sort accordingly.
Does it help? Yes, will I do it with every single case I load? NO i don't shoot much over 200 yds mainly & at that distance its not critical. If I shoot out to 600~700 yds then heck yes I'll take every advantage I can get.

[4runnerman]

wogpotter- 39fps difference in 1/10 grain or less- You have other issues going on. I do mine and am with in 10 to 11fps consistantly. Better redo your test and check other things out. Something is not right here. Brass weight,Bullet weight, trim length, neck tension. ect ect. Not sure what it is but it's something for sure.

[wogpotter]

I'm betting on the powder type. I've never gotten good results with H335, but it was all that was available.
The Speer bullets have to seat very shallow because of the ogive profile so neck tension is probably a bit dodgy as well.

I usually use 3031 with the Hornady bullets & get much better & more consistent results.