9mm problem

jal5 · January 23, 2012, 11:22 PM

I never had this kind of problem before reloading 9mm. I use a 3 die set and deprimed and sized several hundred Federal cases. I am reloading using Berry's 115 gr plated bullet over Bullseye. The first irregularity I noticed was when I went to seat the bullets, the case mouth didn't have enough tension to hold them correctly and I couldn't get any kind of consistent OAL. I tried about 10 cases and stopped to think over what was happening. The case mouth mics at 0.380-0.381 which doesn't seem unusual. I thought maybe I had belled the mouth too much so I used the Lee Taper Crimp Die on it to try to improve the tension holding the bullet. That seemed to help and I got more consistent OAL for those cases @ 1.137. The second odd thing was that when I crimped them using the taper crimp die, I can rotate the bullet in the case on them. It doesn't move in or out of the case it just rotates.

This is the first batch I have reloaded using the taper crimp die, the others were all roll crimped. Any ideas about these? Thanks. Joe

Sevens · January 23, 2012, 11:54 PM

The others were roll crimped? How might you have done that?

Are you sure that the OTHER die you were using wasn't the Factory Crimp die? Lee doesn't offer any roll crimp die in 9mm. If you were using the die that seats the bullet to crimp, you were using a taper crimp die.

First, I would look at the brass. I have found some brass to be thin and this is usually the biggest reason I have case mouth tension issues. I usually see this with R-P brass, but R-P brass doesn't give me problems in 9mm. (it does in other chamberings)

Next, I'd look at how much I'm flaring the case mouth. Go as little as you can, but still be able to place a bullet on top where it won't fall out if you carefully hold it upside down.

Next, I'd screw OUT the bullet seating die to remove all crimp to ensure that I wasn't putting too much taper crimp on the round... which can have the effect of destroying case mouth tension on the bullet. Once you have ensured that NO crimp is imparted on the round -- check your case mouth tension on the bullet. Only after you have that sorted out should you worry about the taper crimp.

Taper crimp is how the 9mm is supposed to be loaded. And the job of taper crimp is NOT to give you case mouth tension on the bullet. That's the job of the brass being sized down enough to do the work, and it's also the job of the bullet to be large enough to fit properly.

jal5 · January 24, 2012, 07:38 AM

Cases were prepped using the Pacific Durachrome 3 die set not a Lee set of dies. The taper crimp die is by Lee that I have. I must have messed up on the flaring step somehow with these cases, that is the only thing I can see.
I think my only remedy is to pull the ones I loaded but how do I correct the tension on the case mouths?

Several weeks ago I was prepping some 9mm cases to cut down to 9x18 size for the Makarov-
maybe these problem cases were actually deprimed and sized using the Mak die set which would be slightly bigger than the 9mm luger die set? That would cause the problem of poor tension at the mouth.

Joe

Sevens · January 24, 2012, 07:48 AM

That would absolutely cause the problems you identified, but I would think a standard 9x19 die might save them -- but given how plentiful 9mm brass is, I certainly wouldn't bother. I'd just start with more 9mm brass.

chris in va · January 24, 2012, 08:04 AM

Federal brass is infamous for being soft.

BTW 9mm MAK is not the same diameter as 9mm Luger, so probably the issue.

armoredman · January 24, 2012, 09:28 AM

If you over crimped trying to get neck tension, you probably ruined the Berry's bullets - the plated bullets are not recommended for a lot of crimping, and Jay from Berry's told me that was the one thing that people do to get them frustrated with the bullet. I use an FCD on my Berry's, but lightly.

serf 'rett · January 24, 2012, 09:45 AM

Correct me if I'm off base, but I've read several times that over crimping a bullet can actually deform the case enough to result in the loose bullet spin you have. I suspect this is also possible with a taper crimp die when used with too much force. In 9mm, the case should provide enough tension to secure the bullet, while the expansion of the case mouth is simply removed but not crimped like a revolver round.

jal5 · January 24, 2012, 09:50 AM

Thanks guys, I am always learning with this hobby, and glad for the advice from you experienced people! I think I will start over and mark the remaining brass more clearly as ready for 9mm Mak preparations. If the Berry's are marked up I can always put them in the range scrap bin for melting later.
I have lots of 9mm brass available too. Joe

jal5 · January 29, 2012, 09:19 AM

I started over with Win brass and had no problems with the Berrys 9mm reloads. Now I have to buy more Berrys or I just might try casting some for this application. I put those other cases aside and clearly marked them for 9x18 Mak use. Joe

January 23, 2012, 11:22 PM	#1
jal5 Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2009 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 419	9mm problem I never had this kind of problem before reloading 9mm. I use a 3 die set and deprimed and sized several hundred Federal cases. I am reloading using Berry's 115 gr plated bullet over Bullseye. The first irregularity I noticed was when I went to seat the bullets, the case mouth didn't have enough tension to hold them correctly and I couldn't get any kind of consistent OAL. I tried about 10 cases and stopped to think over what was happening. The case mouth mics at 0.380-0.381 which doesn't seem unusual. I thought maybe I had belled the mouth too much so I used the Lee Taper Crimp Die on it to try to improve the tension holding the bullet. That seemed to help and I got more consistent OAL for those cases @ 1.137. The second odd thing was that when I crimped them using the taper crimp die, I can rotate the bullet in the case on them. It doesn't move in or out of the case it just rotates. This is the first batch I have reloaded using the taper crimp die, the others were all roll crimped. Any ideas about these? Thanks. Joe __________________ We live in the greatest country on Earth- always be thankful!

January 23, 2012, 11:54 PM	#2
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	The others were roll crimped? How might you have done that? Are you sure that the OTHER die you were using wasn't the Factory Crimp die? Lee doesn't offer any roll crimp die in 9mm. If you were using the die that seats the bullet to crimp, you were using a taper crimp die. First, I would look at the brass. I have found some brass to be thin and this is usually the biggest reason I have case mouth tension issues. I usually see this with R-P brass, but R-P brass doesn't give me problems in 9mm. (it does in other chamberings) Next, I'd look at how much I'm flaring the case mouth. Go as little as you can, but still be able to place a bullet on top where it won't fall out if you carefully hold it upside down. Next, I'd screw OUT the bullet seating die to remove all crimp to ensure that I wasn't putting too much taper crimp on the round... which can have the effect of destroying case mouth tension on the bullet. Once you have ensured that NO crimp is imparted on the round -- check your case mouth tension on the bullet. Only after you have that sorted out should you worry about the taper crimp. Taper crimp is how the 9mm is supposed to be loaded. And the job of taper crimp is NOT to give you case mouth tension on the bullet. That's the job of the brass being sized down enough to do the work, and it's also the job of the bullet to be large enough to fit properly. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

January 24, 2012, 07:38 AM	#3
jal5 Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2009 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 419	Cases were prepped using the Pacific Durachrome 3 die set not a Lee set of dies. The taper crimp die is by Lee that I have. I must have messed up on the flaring step somehow with these cases, that is the only thing I can see. I think my only remedy is to pull the ones I loaded but how do I correct the tension on the case mouths? Several weeks ago I was prepping some 9mm cases to cut down to 9x18 size for the Makarov- maybe these problem cases were actually deprimed and sized using the Mak die set which would be slightly bigger than the 9mm luger die set? That would cause the problem of poor tension at the mouth. Joe __________________ We live in the greatest country on Earth- always be thankful!

January 24, 2012, 07:48 AM	#4
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	That would absolutely cause the problems you identified, but I would think a standard 9x19 die might save them -- but given how plentiful 9mm brass is, I certainly wouldn't bother. I'd just start with more 9mm brass. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

January 24, 2012, 09:45 AM	#7
serf 'rett Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2009 Location: Stuttgart, AR Posts: 1,569	Correct me if I'm off base, but I've read several times that over crimping a bullet can actually deform the case enough to result in the loose bullet spin you have. I suspect this is also possible with a taper crimp die when used with too much force. In 9mm, the case should provide enough tension to secure the bullet, while the expansion of the case mouth is simply removed but not crimped like a revolver round. __________________ A lack of planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part.

January 24, 2012, 08:04 AM	#5
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Federal brass is infamous for being soft. BTW 9mm MAK is not the same diameter as 9mm Luger, so probably the issue.

January 24, 2012, 09:28 AM	#6
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	If you over crimped trying to get neck tension, you probably ruined the Berry's bullets - the plated bullets are not recommended for a lot of crimping, and Jay from Berry's told me that was the one thing that people do to get them frustrated with the bullet. I use an FCD on my Berry's, but lightly.

January 24, 2012, 09:50 AM	#8
jal5 Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2009 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 419	Thanks guys, I am always learning with this hobby, and glad for the advice from you experienced people! I think I will start over and mark the remaining brass more clearly as ready for 9mm Mak preparations. If the Berry's are marked up I can always put them in the range scrap bin for melting later. I have lots of 9mm brass available too. Joe __________________ We live in the greatest country on Earth- always be thankful!

January 29, 2012, 09:19 AM	#9
jal5 Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2009 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 419	I started over with Win brass and had no problems with the Berrys 9mm reloads. Now I have to buy more Berrys or I just might try casting some for this application. I put those other cases aside and clearly marked them for 9x18 Mak use. Joe __________________ We live in the greatest country on Earth- always be thankful!