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Old September 12, 2014, 05:29 AM   #1
Woodbender
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Rimfire scope kids and ammo

First post but I've been lurking for a while.

My daughter (10) showed a lot of interest in shooting after a brief 22 shooting experience at a camp. After searching for a decent gun for a while and ruling out all the short, kid pink stock models we ended up with a ruger american compact model with the shorter barrel and stock.

She Shot about 500 rounds over the course of a few weekends with open sights and she was pretty consistent on the target. Then I installed a rimfire rifle scope and zeroed it as best I could. I'm not a frequent shooter but I do get the basic concepts. This is sort of like the blind leading the blind here since I didn't grow up shooting and don't hunt.

Last time out we bought the "battleship game" targets. That was a nice fun game to use. Kept her interest and she beat me by one shoot which boosted her confidence and gave her some good bragging rights. And no, I didn't let her win.

My question. How can I be as sure as possible that the scope is accurate/zeroed and the ammo we are using isn't causing some of the misses? We are using sandbags on the front but holding the butt of the gun. It sure seems like we should be able to hit the 3/4 inch or so circle on the target everytime at 25 yards.

Am I expecting too much out of a regular (non target Grade) rimfire rifle? Is the cheap bulk ammo just not that accurate? Yes, it could certainly be our technique, skills and inexperience. Which is really the question as we would like to work on those things but I want to eliminate the other variables first.

Ideas?

Thanks
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Old September 12, 2014, 06:50 AM   #2
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Support both front and rear on bags and carefully squeeze the trigger. That's all you need to assure correct sight-in with a 22. At 25 yards, the hits should be closer than 3/4" groups(my opinion) but not all combinations of gun/ammo will make this criteria.
If your rifle won't hit within the target size you're using, shorten the range until it does. When my Grandkids shoot(open sights), we often keep the range within 15 yards.
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Old September 12, 2014, 07:15 AM   #3
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As mentioned, try to stabilize the rifle as best you can. You can google "benchrest shooting"; its the best way to ensure point of aim is the same as point of impact (POA vs.POI) This will vary at various distances.

Once your sighted in with one ammo brand, try another and compare your average group sizes. Then try another...
.22s are notoriously picky when it comes to ammo.
Ruger makes a fine rifle; with ammo it likes it should group pretty tight from a bench-rest.
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Old September 12, 2014, 08:34 AM   #4
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You have the wrong ammo, try some of the various target ammo. I have a Remington 597 (nothing like what you have) and it loves Wolf match ammo.
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Old September 12, 2014, 10:12 AM   #5
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Rimfire central is a great forum to visit if you want to learn all you can about accurate rimfires or making them accurate. Most of your bulk packaged rimfire ammunition will have inconsistencies making it hard for accurate shooting. If your quest is pinpoint accuracy I'd start there.

There is a tool out there that'll let you sort your rimfire ammunition by rim thickness, this is supposed to help with consistency of the groups shot. However spending a few extra dollars and buying better quality ammo will help greatly. Use the high quality ammunition for your battleship game, and save the cheaper stuff for general plinking.
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Old September 12, 2014, 10:27 AM   #6
tahunua001
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22 ammo, especially if you are using bulk is not made to the most exacting standards. they are very inconsistent and there will be several flyers to a brick of 22 ammo. however both of you are inexperienced or out of practice. I am willing to bet that you are a lot less accurate than the rifle, scope, and ammo combined. the ruger american may be cheap but they are well built and have a general reputation for accuracy. depending on the scope you may have a good one or a garbage scope but in my younger years I was able to shoot empty 22 casings with about 50% accuracy at 25 yards when I was younger and had better eyes and I was using a piece of junk scope made by barska. let her practice some, get some practice yourself, maybe even take a father/daughter marksmanship class.
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Old September 12, 2014, 10:28 AM   #7
idek
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Yes, ammo can make a difference, but if both you and your daughter are new to shooting, I don't think you can rule out shooter error (even if the front is supported by sandbags).

A slight flinch as one anticipates the "pop" of the shot can make you miss. Jerking the trigger instead of a smooth pull straight back can make you miss.Taking a shot while inhaling or exhaling can make you miss (because breathing moves your shoulder). These and more mistakes have made me miss plenty of shots. They may not be as significant when using sandbags (I normally don't use any kind of rest), but they can still affect your shots.

Also, be sure the scope rings are staying screwed tightly. On occasion, I've been out shooting and wondering why my shots don't seem consistent. Then I'll touch the scope and realize it's loose.

Last edited by idek; September 12, 2014 at 03:41 PM.
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Old September 12, 2014, 10:38 AM   #8
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Quote:
Taking a shot while inhaling or exhaling can make you miss
not necessarily, taking shots at different points in your breathing pattern can make you miss but there is no set rule that says you have to shoot at the end, beginning, middle of exhale, or middle of inhale. now if one shot is at the end of an exhale and the next is middle of inhale, and the next is middle of exhale that can cause shots to be erratic, but as long as they are all at the same point(for instance always in the middle of exhale which is where I generally shoot) then it shouldn't matter.
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Old September 12, 2014, 10:52 AM   #9
idek
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Yes, that's why I chose the word "can" and not "will." Just trying to point out to the OP that there are lots of factors to consider regarding accuracy other than just ammo.

Last edited by idek; September 12, 2014 at 03:42 PM.
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Old September 12, 2014, 11:16 AM   #10
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yep, there-in lies the catch 22. too little information can be just as harmful as too much. perhaps my post will do nothing more than further confusing the issue. who can tell?
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Old September 12, 2014, 11:22 AM   #11
Panfisher
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Buy a box or two or other ammo and test them to see. Support the rifle as well as you can in sandbags or a good mechanical rest etc. Some rifles are very ammo sensitive, happily enough my rifle seem to like the el-cheapo ammo just fine. The other side of the coin is don't make it too much "work" at this point. Things like shooting the battleship targets, the little plastic crap you get from the kids meals at McDonalds, Old GI Joe figurines, simple stuff you can get for almost nothing at yard sales make for fun shooting. At the end of the day she should always have had fun. I pushed my son toward extreme accuracy and he doesn't really care to shoot anymore, was too much work. Fun stuff rules the day for kids, the cheap clay throwing targets set further out, plastic soda bottle tops so many choices.
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Old September 12, 2014, 11:40 AM   #12
idek
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Quote:
The other side of the coin is don't make it too much "work" at this point. Things like shooting the battleship targets, the little plastic crap you get from the kids meals at McDonalds, Old GI Joe figurines, simple stuff you can get for almost nothing at yard sales make for fun shooting. At the end of the day she should always have had fun. I pushed my son toward extreme accuracy and he doesn't really care to shoot anymore, was too much work. Fun stuff rules the day for kids, the cheap clay throwing targets set further out, plastic soda bottle tops so many choices.
I'm sure every kid is different, but there's some truth there. I took my GF's 8-year-old son out shooting a .22 for the first time a couple months back. I worried that he would get discouraged if he wasn't hitting the target consistently. We were just out in the woods, so we didn't have a nice bench or artificial rests of any kind. I thought if I could teach him to shoot from a sitting or prone position using sling techniques, we could optimize his accuracy...

In the end he just shot from a standing position with no sling or supports. He shot at at aluminum cans about 10-15 yards away. He missed most of the time, but he forgot all the misses whenever he'd get a hit, and by the time we were done, he had enjoyed himself.

Not saying there is anything wrong with a kid going for precision accuracy... just that the experience was an eye-opening reminder that kids can be happy with simpler things too.

Last edited by idek; September 12, 2014 at 02:33 PM.
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Old September 12, 2014, 01:15 PM   #13
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OK, QUICK FIX.
Use bigger/closer targets and use bulk/cheap ammo, (cheap in today's market).
Use smaller/further away targets and use premium ammo (ammo the gun likes)
Increase shooting budget as y'alls skills interest increases.
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Old September 12, 2014, 02:38 PM   #14
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You might need a leather rabbit ear {you can squeeze the ears with your hand for small final adjustments for doping the wind an such} rear bag for the stock. A short eared bunny bag is for thick stocks. Sight it in at 25 yards...and if possible ---- get final horizontal zero at 50 or 100 yards on a windless day; or use wind flags. Shoot at small targets {"aim small shoot small"}, so as to make you concentrate better. Usually...22 rimfire rifles like a firm hold, with slight rearward tension of the trigger hand. Treat your trigger finger as it's own entity. You can practice squeezing/pressing a top clicker ball point pen when not shooting live-fire; for practice with trigger control.

If you can afford it...buy a quality adjustable front pedestal rest, like one from Sinclair International or Hart; which will help you get smaller groups.

I tend to avoid using Remington 22 Thunderbolt ammo.

You can buy stock bags at Sinclair International, Natchez or Hart {is also the place you can buy heavy bag sand}. I fill mine with #9 lead shot...but the lead filled bags are prohibited at certain matches.
You might like a different sized cloth Caldwell stock bags, which look more comfortable for the rifle and shooter.

Do not rest the naked barrel on the front bag {interferes with barrel harmonics}, only the stock should be rested on the bags.

Get her a prone shooting blanket, so she can learn to shoot prone, {shooting offhand/sitting not out of the question}, along with a quality spotting scope and stand --- with a possible shooting jacket and pants too boot.

With the offhand position...use triangular bone support, while the standing position uses a bit more muscular support.

P.S.- Make sure the parallax distance setting is set on the scope, at the designated shooting distance.
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Last edited by Erno86; September 12, 2014 at 03:48 PM.
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Old September 12, 2014, 05:03 PM   #15
Woodbender
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Thanks all for the help and ideas. My daughter really isn't getting discouraged from not hitting the targets all the time. She just keeps trying and usually she is pretty close. Maybe a 1/2 an inch to an inch off the circle. Sometimes an odd one will fly an inch or two off the target ring. She does take a lot of pride in nailing the bullseye dead center. And she seems to pick up on shooting tighter groups.

I think we/she is resting the barrel on the sand bags. I didn't know that could cause issues so we'll start resting the stock on the bags.

Some people mentioned buying some target ammo and giving that a try. What should we look for with target ammo? CCI minimag? CCI standard velocity? I suppose I could buy the high dollar stuff online but realistically we probably wouldn't know the difference at this point.

Are there any good books/videos on some of the basics for this type of shooting? Series of youtube videos?

Thanks.
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Old September 12, 2014, 05:15 PM   #16
Vt.birdhunter
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A little training would go a long way.
Google "Project Appleseed". They will teach you rifle basics from standing, sitting and prone positions. They put a strong emphasis on firearms safety in addition to marksmanship fundamentals. They operate in most states.
Its good bang for the buck.

A lesson with a certified instructor would also help quite a bit.
Learn it once, learn it right.

Aquila makes affordable .22s that are VERY accurate.

Eley, and Wolf are excellent, but pricy.

Federal Automatch used to be widely available. Its very consistent for the price.

Avoid Remington .22s IMHO; dirty, filthy, unreliable.

Here is a link to an review of the Ruger American (not the compact), it shows which ammo performed best in the authors rifle (results may vary rifle to rifle)
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...rican-rimfire/

The author seemed to group between 1.5" and 3" at 50 yards using a scope.

Another ammo comparison with the American:
http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-American22.htm
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Old September 13, 2014, 08:04 AM   #17
olddav
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Woodbender
You will see the difference In ammo. No amount of skill can overcome poor ammo.
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Old September 14, 2014, 10:55 AM   #18
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After everything is done with zero and I have the brand or model of ammo I like to use I will take one of those targets with 5 targets on it (top left, top right, center, bottom left, and bottom right).

Then I will pick up other ammo that's available. Shoot each target with a specific brand of ammo and label it. Also take a picture with my phone in case I grab a box and need to know where it shoots.

In one rifle I noticed remington and cci shoot to center and slight right where ans federal and winchester seemed to shoot to the left a bit. Doesn't mean this will happen in other rifles but I have a remington 581 and a rossi 22 that act the same.
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