Fine tuning an AR trigger - worth the effort??

BumbleBug · September 12, 2014, 11:21 PM

I've built my AR15 with PSA lower parts & it shoots & functions pretty good for a bargain rifle. The standard trigger is really HEAVY & has a bit of roughness at the end of pull. I understand how the trigger/hammer works & I've read articles & watched videos on polishing, stoning, "bobbing" the hammer, lighter springs, etc.

Is it worth the effort? Can I really get a decent trigger by working over the standard assembly & adding a $10 spring kit?

Or...

Is it better just to spend the $75 up for a drop-in trigger?

TIA...

...bug

tangolima · September 13, 2014, 12:07 AM

Do you enjoy doing it? Only you know the answer.

-TL

10-96 · September 13, 2014, 01:50 AM

To me- it's better to go with a match trigger. Reason being is liability- or better said "Risk". The hardening is pretty thin on those parts, so I'm told. Now I could probably shoot the thing fine for years ( or once or twice), but how am I supposed to feel if it goes bad while a family member is shooting it? I'll work on and tinker at a lot of things- but I feel like I just don't know ALL the details well enough to tinker with an AR trigger when such fine examples are available from folks who do have a good grip on the processes.

jcj54 · September 13, 2014, 07:02 AM

Are notorious for thin hardening on hammer and sear surfaces. I have never worked one that did not go bad over time due to wearing through the case hardening. Aftermarket hammers and triggers of the original pattern which are made of tool steel and hard all the way through will last when smoothed. Up front expense proves worth it in the long run.

Xfire68 · September 13, 2014, 07:39 AM

I have always put in the little extra effort to improve the triggers on my guns.
I have had mixed success cleaning up my AR GI triggers from just "Ok" improvements to "Wow that is a pretty nice $10 trigger"!

My last effort was a PSA MOE lower parts kit trigger and it turned out great. I still plan to upgrade to a "Better" trigger but, this works for now.

trigger643 · September 13, 2014, 07:41 AM

As other's have already stated, it's not worth the fuss to fool with stock trigger. Best to go with a match trigger and drop that in and be done with it.

tobnpr · September 13, 2014, 08:20 AM

On one, we built using the JPS 3.5 springs- and it made a very discernable difference.

http://www.jprifles.com/buy.php?item=JPS3.5

I would start there- it's a very cheap investment, and will give you tangible results. Personally, I wouldn't put any more effort into an inexpensive trigger group. Replacing the trigger and hammer springs may give you a decent "enough" trigger- depends on what you're looking for.

On another rifle (an AR-10 with a lousy trigger group), we replaced it with the complete JP Fire Control system. Fantastic results, 3.5 lb pull weight- but it is not "drop-in" by any means, and requires timing (grinding) the disconnector.

http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.8.2_fc.php

If you feel comfortable doing some minor gunsmithing, this is a relatively inexpensive way to go compared to getting "drop-in" triggers from Timney or Geissele.

**4V50 Gary** · September 13, 2014, 01:57 PM

I think it's worth the effort. All it takes is time and it saves you money.

Brian Pfleuger · September 13, 2014, 03:58 PM

You don't learn anything by buying a trigger and dropping it in. If you're ok with that, do it up.

If you want to try it yourself, give it a run. What's going to happen? You have to buy a new trigger? Hm. See step 1.

Thin hardening? So what. Harden and then temper it yourself. It's not rocket science.

Grizz12 · September 13, 2014, 05:38 PM

Quote:

You don't learn anything by buying a trigger and dropping it in. If you're ok with that, do it up.

If you want to try it yourself, give it a run. What's going to happen? You have to buy a new trigger? Hm. See step 1.

Thin hardening? So what. Harden and then temper it yourself. It's not rocket science.

How do you know if you ruined the hardening? How do you harden it yourself?

Brian Pfleuger · September 13, 2014, 07:01 PM

High-carbon steel is hardened when it reaches it's Curie Temperature (the point it loses magnetism).

There's a bunch of ways to harden, quench and temper steel but here's how I'd do it.

1)Suspend the piece by one end, using a fairly large magnet over a bucket containing a solution of 1 gallon water, 1 pound salt and 8oz of Dawn dish soap.

2)Start heating the part slowly at first and once it's hot, apply high-heat directly. Use two torches if necessary.

3)When it loses it's magnetism and falls in the solution, it will be hardened and quenched.

Tempering is trickier. A good fryer can do it. You need 400F. Peanut oil has a high enough flash point. It can also be done in an oven if it holds the temperature very well. Put the part in the cold oil, turn the fryer on, heat it to 400 and give it about 40 minutes (for a trigger piece). You need about 20 minutes per 1 inch cross-section. Turn the fryer off. When the oil is cool, take your part out and you're done.

Grizz12 · September 13, 2014, 08:19 PM

Quote:

High-carbon steel is hardened when it reaches it's Curie Temperature (the point it loses magnetism).

There's a bunch of ways to harden, quench and temper steel but here's how I'd do it.

1)Suspend the piece by one end, using a fairly large magnet over a bucket containing a solution of 1 gallon water, 1 pound salt and 8oz of Dawn dish soap.

2)Start heating the part slowly at first and once it's hot, apply high-heat directly. Use two torches if necessary.

3)When it loses it's magnetism and falls in the solution, it will be hardened and quenched.

Tempering is trickier. A good fryer can do it. You need 400F. Peanut oil has a high enough flash point. It can also be done in an oven if it holds the temperature very well. Put the part in the cold oil, turn the fryer on, heat it to 400 and give it about 40 minutes (for a trigger piece). You need about 20 minutes per 1 inch cross-section. Turn the fryer off. When the oil is cool, take your part out and you're done.

1 lb of salt and dawn dish soap??? Where did you get that recipe?

BTW, as I re-read this I see it sounds like I'm being a smart a$$, but I don't mean it that way, I'm curious to know.

Also, how do you know it lost its temper and hardness?

Brian Pfleuger · September 13, 2014, 08:57 PM

It's not my invention. It (or something similar) was invented by Rob Gunter at Los Alamos National Laboratory.

How do you tell? Personally, I wouldn't worry about it and if I was I'd just reharden and temper it.

There's no nondestructive way to tell. You basically have to file it.

smarquez · September 16, 2014, 07:07 PM

I did this mod on my CORE15 trigger. It had a smooth trigger with a good break but the pull was long. This trigger still feels better than my Geisele SDM trigger.
Huge disclaimer by the guy but it is super easy. I am going to do this on my wife S&W Sport with a JP spring kit.
http://www.junkyardgenius.com/firearms/ar-15/ar08.html

Sure shot wv · September 17, 2014, 08:23 PM

Brian- that was a great write up you did there. Ok so here's my thoughts.

I think it all depends on the rifle use and your abilities. I've done a handful of triggers in various firearms including the AR. If I'm building a standard AR yes I work all the triggers. I've found that I personally don't mind the heavier pull weight if the pull is smooth and crisp and has a decent break. However I also have a Geissele s3g trigger in one of my AR's and I absolutely love it. Is it worth the 230 bucks I payed for it, ehh that's up to you.

The triggers that I have done are nice and so much better than a basic GI trigger but they don't compare to the break on that Geissele. It's truly the nicest trigger I've pulled in an AR.

I think you should try doing the trigger and see what results you get. What's the worst that happens, you learn something and maybe buy a new trigger group.

BumbleBug · September 17, 2014, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sure Shot wv

I think you should try doing the trigger and see what results you get. What's the worst that happens, you learn something and maybe buy a new trigger group.

This is the conclusion I've come to.

I'll put in a few hours working on it & if I'm frustrated I'll spring for the extra cost of a drop in. The next question is which trigger assembly. This rifle is not deluxe enough for a $200+ trigger group.

...bug

10-96 · September 18, 2014, 02:53 AM

I've always been pleased enough with the Rock River Arms 2-stage match triggers and the CMMG adjustable 2-stage.

I haven't bought a trigger for a couple of years now- but they used to go for $120 each.

cryogenic419 · September 18, 2014, 04:10 AM

Going with the Rock River 2 stage would not be a choice you'd regret. Good solid trigger with decent feel, pull weight is around 4.5-5 lbs. Its what RRA is shipping in their NM models.

jglenn · September 24, 2014, 10:00 AM

I've used quitre a few of these in my plain builds.

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts...prod53928.aspx

great triggers for getting rid of the creap and roughness asociated with stock AR triggers

add a JP spring kit and it really makes a nice trigger without messing with the sear engagement

I normally buy these triggers and a parts kit mnius the trigger group that Brownells sells.

September 12, 2014, 11:21 PM	#1
BumbleBug Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2013 Location: Near Heart of Texas Posts: 870	Fine tuning an AR trigger - worth the effort?? I've built my AR15 with PSA lower parts & it shoots & functions pretty good for a bargain rifle. The standard trigger is really HEAVY & has a bit of roughness at the end of pull. I understand how the trigger/hammer works & I've read articles & watched videos on polishing, stoning, "bobbing" the hammer, lighter springs, etc. Is it worth the effort? Can I really get a decent trigger by working over the standard assembly & adding a $10 spring kit? Or... Is it better just to spend the $75 up for a drop-in trigger? TIA... ...bug

September 13, 2014, 01:50 AM	#3
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,160	To me- it's better to go with a match trigger. Reason being is liability- or better said "Risk". The hardening is pretty thin on those parts, so I'm told. Now I could probably shoot the thing fine for years ( or once or twice), but how am I supposed to feel if it goes bad while a family member is shooting it? I'll work on and tinker at a lot of things- but I feel like I just don't know ALL the details well enough to tinker with an AR trigger when such fine examples are available from folks who do have a good grip on the processes. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

September 13, 2014, 07:02 AM	#4
jcj54 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2011 Posts: 219	AR triggers Are notorious for thin hardening on hammer and sear surfaces. I have never worked one that did not go bad over time due to wearing through the case hardening. Aftermarket hammers and triggers of the original pattern which are made of tool steel and hard all the way through will last when smoothed. Up front expense proves worth it in the long run.

September 13, 2014, 07:39 AM	#5
Xfire68 Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2010 Location: Communist State of IL. Posts: 1,562	I have always put in the little extra effort to improve the triggers on my guns. I have had mixed success cleaning up my AR GI triggers from just "Ok" improvements to "Wow that is a pretty nice $10 trigger"! My last effort was a PSA MOE lower parts kit trigger and it turned out great. I still plan to upgrade to a "Better" trigger but, this works for now. __________________ NRA Life Member, SAF Member

September 13, 2014, 08:20 AM	#7
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	On one, we built using the JPS 3.5 springs- and it made a very discernable difference. http://www.jprifles.com/buy.php?item=JPS3.5 I would start there- it's a very cheap investment, and will give you tangible results. Personally, I wouldn't put any more effort into an inexpensive trigger group. Replacing the trigger and hammer springs may give you a decent "enough" trigger- depends on what you're looking for. On another rifle (an AR-10 with a lousy trigger group), we replaced it with the complete JP Fire Control system. Fantastic results, 3.5 lb pull weight- but it is not "drop-in" by any means, and requires timing (grinding) the disconnector. http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.8.2_fc.php If you feel comfortable doing some minor gunsmithing, this is a relatively inexpensive way to go compared to getting "drop-in" triggers from Timney or Geissele. __________________ Remington 700/Savage Rebarreling /Action Blueprinting 07 FFL /Mosin-Nagant Custom Shop/Bent Bolts Genuine Cerakote Applicator www.biggorillagunworks.com

September 13, 2014, 12:07 AM	#2
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,827	Do you enjoy doing it? Only you know the answer. -TL

September 13, 2014, 07:41 AM	#6
trigger643 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2011 Posts: 322	As other's have already stated, it's not worth the fuss to fool with stock trigger. Best to go with a match trigger and drop that in and be done with it.

September 13, 2014, 01:57 PM	#8
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	I think it's worth the effort. All it takes is time and it saves you money. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

September 13, 2014, 03:58 PM	#9
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	You don't learn anything by buying a trigger and dropping it in. If you're ok with that, do it up. If you want to try it yourself, give it a run. What's going to happen? You have to buy a new trigger? Hm. See step 1. Thin hardening? So what. Harden and then temper it yourself. It's not rocket science. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; September 13, 2014 at 04:16 PM.

September 13, 2014, 07:01 PM	#11
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	High-carbon steel is hardened when it reaches it's Curie Temperature (the point it loses magnetism). There's a bunch of ways to harden, quench and temper steel but here's how I'd do it. 1)Suspend the piece by one end, using a fairly large magnet over a bucket containing a solution of 1 gallon water, 1 pound salt and 8oz of Dawn dish soap. 2)Start heating the part slowly at first and once it's hot, apply high-heat directly. Use two torches if necessary. 3)When it loses it's magnetism and falls in the solution, it will be hardened and quenched. Tempering is trickier. A good fryer can do it. You need 400F. Peanut oil has a high enough flash point. It can also be done in an oven if it holds the temperature very well. Put the part in the cold oil, turn the fryer on, heat it to 400 and give it about 40 minutes (for a trigger piece). You need about 20 minutes per 1 inch cross-section. Turn the fryer off. When the oil is cool, take your part out and you're done. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

September 13, 2014, 08:57 PM	#13
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	It's not my invention. It (or something similar) was invented by Rob Gunter at Los Alamos National Laboratory. How do you tell? Personally, I wouldn't worry about it and if I was I'd just reharden and temper it. There's no nondestructive way to tell. You basically have to file it.

September 16, 2014, 07:07 PM	#14
smarquez Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2011 Posts: 135	I did this mod on my CORE15 trigger. It had a smooth trigger with a good break but the pull was long. This trigger still feels better than my Geisele SDM trigger. Huge disclaimer by the guy but it is super easy. I am going to do this on my wife S&W Sport with a JP spring kit. http://www.junkyardgenius.com/firearms/ar-15/ar08.html

September 17, 2014, 08:23 PM	#15
Sure shot wv Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2013 Location: West Virginia Posts: 137	Brian- that was a great write up you did there. Ok so here's my thoughts. I think it all depends on the rifle use and your abilities. I've done a handful of triggers in various firearms including the AR. If I'm building a standard AR yes I work all the triggers. I've found that I personally don't mind the heavier pull weight if the pull is smooth and crisp and has a decent break. However I also have a Geissele s3g trigger in one of my AR's and I absolutely love it. Is it worth the 230 bucks I payed for it, ehh that's up to you. The triggers that I have done are nice and so much better than a basic GI trigger but they don't compare to the break on that Geissele. It's truly the nicest trigger I've pulled in an AR. I think you should try doing the trigger and see what results you get. What's the worst that happens, you learn something and maybe buy a new trigger group.

September 18, 2014, 02:53 AM	#17
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,160	I've always been pleased enough with the Rock River Arms 2-stage match triggers and the CMMG adjustable 2-stage. I haven't bought a trigger for a couple of years now- but they used to go for $120 each. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

September 18, 2014, 04:10 AM	#18
cryogenic419 Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2009 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 569	Going with the Rock River 2 stage would not be a choice you'd regret. Good solid trigger with decent feel, pull weight is around 4.5-5 lbs. Its what RRA is shipping in their NM models.

September 24, 2014, 10:00 AM	#19
jglenn Member Join Date: May 22, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 56	alg triggers I've used quitre a few of these in my plain builds. http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts...prod53928.aspx great triggers for getting rid of the creap and roughness asociated with stock AR triggers add a JP spring kit and it really makes a nice trigger without messing with the sear engagement I normally buy these triggers and a parts kit mnius the trigger group that Brownells sells.