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Old February 17, 2016, 03:49 PM   #1
Nick_C_S
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Had to pull some bullets :p

Yesterday was a range chronograph day with one of my 1911's. Among the load recipes to be tested was a 185 JHP using Power Pistol.

Looking in my chronograph notes from a couple years ago, I found that I had already loaded these bullets at 8.8 and 9.0 grains. My 8.8 notes state "need to work up" (1066 f/s). There were no notes on the 9.0 (1083 f/s); but they were tested a month after the 8.8's (Sept/Oct '13).

So I figured I'd load 12 each at 8.8, 9.0, & 9.2. I recently got QuickLOAD, and it yielded velocities nearly in line with the 2013 data. So I figured I was on the right track.

The first shot ROARED downrange at 1121 f/s. The second 1130. Third 1137. You get the idea. These things were potent, to say the least. From the first shot, I knew these were nothing like any 45 ACP round I've ever fired; and were actually a little near magnum-like in feel/sound - ok, at least they didn't sound/feel anything like a 45 ACP; that's for sure. From the first shot, I knew I wasn't going to test the 9.0's; much less the 9.2's. In the forefront of my mind, I knew that Power Pistol doesn't exactly have a reputation for being forgiving. It's highly energetic stuff.

After putting 10 shots downrange, I couldn't bring myself to shooting any more for fear of firearm damage. I was running a 20Lb spring; otherwise, I would have stopped at the first shot. This is NOT how I treat my guns.

Why so much difference between yesterday's results, and results from two years ago? I think I know what happened. In June '14, I replaced my scale (an RCBS 510 from 1984) because it was giving inconsistent readings. I think it was doing so - unnoticed - prior to June '14. Most likely, it was reading heavy (thus yielding light charges) at the time, and I just didn't know. The take-away here is to not reference any of my data from prior to June '14 - at least, not when it comes to near-max rounds.

I'll go back to the drawing board with the 185/PP loading (I have like 800 of these bullets). But I'll start at 8.2, and try 8.4 also. It's not likely I'll go further. If they run in the 1075 f/s neighborhood, I'll be satisfied. Again, I don't like beating up my guns.

The actual OAL was 1.205 (both now, and in 2013 - via plunk test). In order to tweek QL to align with the actual velocity, I had to move it down to 1.150. It's an Everglades jacketed bullet; and has a length of .540 - for those who want to QL the data for themselves.

So I got to inertia pull 26 bullets last night That's the most I've had to pull in a long time. I take a certain amount of pride in rarely having to pull bullets. Ate a little crow yesterday.

For the record, I'm going to have a mini-light show with the pulled powder. But will re-flare the brass and re-use the bullets. The recovered brass/bullets will be loaded as a separate batch; and they'll just be a light loading of TiteGroup. They aren't going to go back into the Power Pistol rounds.
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Old February 17, 2016, 04:08 PM   #2
hartcreek
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There is NO reason to burn that powder. Just pull the bullets and dump the powder into a clean container and use it to work up your load with your new scale. Weigh your charges from the old load on your new scale also.
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Old February 17, 2016, 04:12 PM   #3
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Some powders also get more lot-to-lot variation than others.

In QL you can click on the button to the right of the column of powder data and try a little bit higher burn rate. Usually ±3%, but I gather from Hodgdon that ±5% must be used in some instances.
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Old February 17, 2016, 05:07 PM   #4
Nick_C_S
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Quote:
In QL you can click on the button to the right of the column of powder data and try a little bit higher burn rate.
Oh that's neat. I didn't realize when you click on that button, all the powder characteristics are no longer grayed out and can be adjusted. Specifically, the one to adjust would be the "Burning Rate Factor Ba"?

I actually have quite a few questions about QL specifically regarding how to get the data to line up better with actual chrono data - and to be "linear" from charge weight to charge weight. I was moving the OAL in and out, but that may not be the best way. My guess is that there is no "best way," and it may vary from load to load. More experience with QL will help me along the way.
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Old February 17, 2016, 05:41 PM   #5
Nick_C_S
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Quote:
There is NO reason to burn that powder.
I'm sure you're right. But I just wasn't comfortable pouring it back into the canister - nor letting it sit around for use later. Just doesn't sit well with me. It's only about 270 grains and powder is relatively cheap. I have 5 Lbs. of P'P'stl. Plus, I have since mixed it with a little bit of TiteGroup; so it's a done deal now. I would have already torched it, but it's a windy day today

Quote:
Weigh your charges from the old load on your new scale.
I haven't looked for certain, but I doubt I have any ammo from my old scale. I tend to load ammo as I need it, with very little inventory build up. I'm not going to dive any deeper than I already have. For sure, I'm using a different lot of P'P'stl than I was 2 1/2 years ago - but that doesn't explain the huge disparity in performance.
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Old February 17, 2016, 10:44 PM   #6
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Question: when you got your new scale did check how it measured compared to your old scale?
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Old February 18, 2016, 12:05 AM   #7
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Have you cross checked the loads with published data? Max load in my Lyman 49th PP 185 gr jhp is 8.3 gr.

Ive only used PP mostly in my 10mm and man it packs a wollop! Actually seemed a little hot to me.

Loaded some test loads for the chronograph this week. See what I'm really getting. Ill let u know what i get out of them. They are loaded kind of middle of the road for the light 155gr I'm testing.
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Old February 18, 2016, 02:40 PM   #8
briandg
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I had this exact problem. I loaded up several hundred rounds of .38,then found some inconsistencies in my scale. Being very overly cautious, I bough a new scale and pulled all of those loads. I could have safely run them through a magnum, and even as they were they were probably safe.

I replaced the scale. I swore a lot as I pulled them all with a hammer puller.
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Old February 18, 2016, 02:45 PM   #9
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When you pull them, try weighing the powder on your new scale.
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Old February 18, 2016, 05:07 PM   #10
Nick_C_S
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Quote:
When you got your new scale did check how it measured compared to your old scale?
No. The old scale was worn out. I could persuade it to balance some +/- 3 tenths from zero.

Quote:
When you pull them, try weighing the powder on your new scale.
I already pulled them and bundled the powder. The charges were correct. I check; double check; then check again with every loading I do. And yes, that includes re-reading my scale to ensure I set it correctly. Not to mention, I use check weights each and every time. And if I as much as bump my scale, I will re-zero it, and start over. I even look at the powder canister several times during a load - just to make sure I'm using the correct powder.
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Old March 3, 2016, 04:49 PM   #11
Nick_C_S
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Update . . .

I chronographed my 185 JHP's using 8.2gn and 8.4gn of Power Pistol yesterday . . .

8.2gn - 1070 f/s; 15.94 SD
8.4gn - 1091 f/s; 16.58 SD

Both shot really nice. These ran sweet. And since I've already tried them at 8.8 (), I'll consider 8.4 the set charge weight. The last step is just to chronograph a larger sample (the above sample was 12 rounds each) to ensure consistent results. After that, I'll load them up in quantity at will.
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Old March 6, 2016, 10:04 AM   #12
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Another good reason to have a extra scale to use as a sanity check.
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Old March 6, 2016, 04:34 PM   #13
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Just my simplistic answer:
Was it the SAME lot number of powder?
Were the bullets from the same lot or did the manufacturer make any unannounced changes (as they so like to do)?
COL the same?
Gun the same?
Primer and cases shouldn't make much difference.

Then, I have a real question for you--why did you keep shooting what you should have suspected were MAX or over-MAX loads?
Maybe I'm overly cautious, but I would have packed up after the second shot (would have checked out the chrono after the first shot and maybe seen if anyone around had a load they knew anything about to fire through it) and gone home and torn them apart.
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Old March 7, 2016, 08:39 PM   #14
Nick_C_S
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Quote:
Was it the SAME lot number of powder?
Yep.

Quote:
Were the bullets from the same lot or did the manufacturer make any unannounced changes (as they so like to do)?
Same lot.

Quote:
COL the same?
Yep - 1.203."

Quote:
Gun the same?
Nope. First test was a Colt 1911; the second test was a Springfield Mil-Spec. But both were full size 1911's w/ Wilson Combat 20 recoil spring w/ shok-buffer.

Quote:
Then, I have a real question for you--why did you keep shooting what you should have suspected were MAX or over-MAX loads?
Because my concern wasn't catastrophic failure of the firearm. It was more of a case of excessive gun wear. I fired 10 of the 12 loaded rounds to get a good data sample - then stopped. There were two more sets of 12 that were even stronger - those were not fired at all.

Not sure if you read my more recent post, but I have since gone back to the range and fired two more sets - one each at 8.2 and 8.4 grains; and both were excellent shooters. I'll probably go with the 8.4 as my production charge weight.
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