So...Would Pepper Spray Have Been Bad?

[cakepaladin]

Hey Folks,

I am an Ohio CCW, 2nd Degree Black Belt in Tang Soo Do, and all that good stuff. But I work on assignment currently in Maryland (Montgomery County) and came across a disturbing situation the other day. First off, I am not allowed to carry in Maryland and I'm not one of those guys who thinks that having a black belt means that I am going to take on a crowd of people and win. I know better. I'm also not very politically correct, so let me apologize in advance if I call a spade a spade.

But I was walking out to my truck the other day and a bunch of black kids started playing the fool. I couldn't tell if they were high school kids or what the heck they were other than that there were about seven of them who were all pumped up and acting brave because they were with their pack. Go figure. Anyway, I am trying to make my way to me vehicle when one of the fools kept jumping around in front of me asking for a dollar. He couldn't have played more of a stereotype if he would have tried. Other people in the parking lot kept their distance and didn't get involved for good reason. I don't blame them. Nobody touched me physically, but it COULD have turned ugly fast. I wonder what would have happened legally if I would have sprayed the fool down with some Fox Labs 5.3 spray? The reason that I ask is because I was indeed in fear of getting my face stomped in by the other six kids/guys behind me. I was really surprised that they didn't rush me. To be honest there isn't much you can do when walking out of a crowded store into a parking lot. It's just not something you would typically go Rambo and start moving from car to car tactically to avoid. I honestly wonder how far things would go before I could legitimatelly discharge spray. Do I have to be getting my arse kicked before I am allowed to react? Or would I end-up getting arrested because I wasn't sensitive to his "hard" upbringing?

I really feel that my rights and freedoms are tied here in the DC area. You can't carry firearms here and you are prodded by the local government with every type of restriction on everything here. You can't even buy bullets here unless you go over to Virginia. Any advice on Pepper Spray/Mace laws and avoiding trouble?

Regards,
John Ringo
Yep...I had to re-register with a new name. This is "Johnny Ringo"

Howdy Charlie Cohen from Steubenville !!!! How are ya man?

[Tanzer]

You might p*ss people off with the "spade a Spade" comment. Pointing them out as black is okay (in my mind), but unnecessary because people any "culture" (at least the dumb ones who act stereotypically and then get offended if you point it out) will often act as they are "expected" to act. A bunch of white punks can be every bit as unnerving and offensive, just in more of a "Hey, I'm proud to be a maggot" type of way, so let's not worry about what they looked like, and talk about their actions.
Thet were "playing" with you - safety in numbers. This would point out that they were "LESS" likely to be possessing a weapon of any sort. Not a rule out, but less likely.

Other people in the parking lot kept their distance and didn't get involved for good reason.

What's the good reason? (unless they were old ladies or women with kids). You describe them as young punks - punks don't like evening up the odds. This brings me to ask why you didn't head for a more populated area, like turning back to the store immediately. If they're sizing you up, the longer you act like you're avoiding confrontation, the braver they will become.
As a MA guy, I'm sure you know ;
1. Don't be there
2. Avoid/de-escalate
3. Watch for traps

To be honest there isn't much you can do when walking out of a crowded store into a parking lot. It's just not something you would typically go Rambo and start moving from car to car tactically to avoid.

Assuming you can't get out of the fray;
Moving from car to car is not a Rambo move, it's a tactical one. They're going to A) have to think tactically now, and B) make a scene doing so. Their intentions become clear. If they just keep joking, they'll grow tired or catch the eye of someone who can help, or B) One will have to make a direct move upon your person, at which point you have a far better reason for a blast of spray; "Officer, I want to be treated for shock, it was traumatizing" (get cops out of your hair) "Mr. Lawyer, I did everything I could think of to get away, but one of them rushed me".

[Musketeer]

When a group of wasted youths of one race gang up against a lone person of another race then race does become a factor. It is one more "degree of separation" between the attackers and victim. It is easier to attack someone who is "one of them" than "one of us". This does not mean there is no black on black or white on white crime, it simply means that when you are in a mixed race scenario there is one more danger facotr to be aware of.

Sorry, but race does make a difference.

Now as far as using the spray... I would hold off until you absolutely had to. With a group odds are you are not going to get all of them. They may turn and run or they may attack. I keep it in my hand inside my jacket or vest pocket. At the last second use it and RUN like Jesse Owens! I would run into a store or such very quickly while calling the cops. Spraying just one, especially if they have not atually attacked, could very well embolden the rest.

[Tanzer]

Musketeer,
I agree with the way you put it. I just don't want to see the OP get trashed as a racist. Put two different cultures together and you have disagreements on some things. With uneven odds, one culture gets more say. Throw punks of any culture into the mix, give them uneven odds, and you've got trouble.

[cakepaladin]

Howdy Guys,

Thanks for the feedback. No, I'm not a racist in any sense of the term. The "spade" comment has nothing to do with black people. My dad being a cards player always used that term when I was a kid, as do I for "calling something what it is." No racial references intended.

I couldn't have avoided them period. It was a basic run of the mill parking lot with a Giant Foods, liquer store, dry cleaners, and a martial arts school. A type of local strip shopping center. There was no place to go. They singled me out probably because they were standing by the main door to the store I exited. As I came out of the store one kid ran right at me and began asking me for money. I ignored him and kept walking. He then ran around to my front while the others stayed at my back. The kid in front was going way out of his way to play the part of some stereotypical street thug calling me "cracker" and "f*ing biiiiatch" because I wouldn't give him "a dollar". So yeah...that is a stereotype to me.

The distance from the front door of the store to my vehicle was less that 50 feet. I had stuff in my hands and was not exactly in a state to bolt off running. I didn't want to fight, I didn't want a confrontation, and I didn't want to prove a point. I just wanted to get into my vehicle and get home. It COULD have turned ugly, nasty I am just curious "what" would have happened if I zapped him---prob a dumb move---but curious. Once a perp grabs you it's often too late. His buddies would have been all over me in probably less that 5 secounds.

Living in a crowded suburb of Washington DC does NOT give me much opportunity to pick and choose where I go shopping, or out to eat. It's crowded everywhere you go. People don't get involved with other people's issues unless it typically affects them. That's city life. There are white punks around here, and there are many of them out in the world, but around here there is a certain stereotype that the local youth likes to play. That was it. I dont think I was very strategic in not turning this into some sort of a racial thread, but like I said I'm not a very good P/C guy.

Regards,
John

[CrazyIvan007]

I woulda never let them surround me. Being perceptive, you can tell if someone is headed for the store, or if their attention is caught by someone and they start to approach them. If I was exiting, I probably would have noticed these guys immediately and if they started moving toward my position, I would have returned to the store.

I wouldn't have noticed them for their race, but rather them just acting stupid. Where I live, that comes in all races...black, asian, white, latino...just depends on what part of town you are in, but it always exists. Every time I go to the mall in the suburbs, there is always a gothic group of white kids or white skaters or just kids with the mob mntality hanging out at the door, usually smoking or something and acting like idiots. I always watch them closely as I leave and as I enter.

Downtown during off-hours, there are a lot of young black guys running around in groups. If I am down there and see them, I distance myself, and watch them closely.

If you go to WalMart or KMart or something, there is always some kind of latino or asian group acting like idiots outside the door or in the parking lot. Same watchful eye is set on them upon entering and leaving.

[DougO83]

A few things:

1. If it ever happens again, remember that color is not involved unless you are specifically asked. It can get you in trouble. Advice from a LEO friend of mine.

2. Pepper spray may have worked, but there are a number of factors to keep in mind. Wind and proximity are the most important two. If I grab you by your collar, OC spray is going to hit you as much as it hits me. You are then neutralized and at the whim of my friends. Oh yea, don't forget about your state's laws.

3. "Violence is not the answer....depending on the question." Best advice I ever recieved.

I would have issued one verbal warning to leave me be while presenting the spray and then used it. Of course, that is allowed by Texas law.

[CrazyIvan007]

I didn't mean to make it racist, I just was saying, I understand where you are coming from. There are stereotypes with every race. Does recognizing those stereotypes make you a racist? I don't think so. And I use the terms "black" "white" "mexican" etc... The whole PC thing doesn't play a role in my mind. Cause technically, I am British/Scottish American...but I am not bitching to get myself denoted as anything other than white. So, I see no reason to recognize others in a PC fashion.

If you popped him with the pepper spray, they would have probably either 1. left you alone or 2. ganked you. (Gank = Group or individual using their superiority either in numbers or ability to attack a smaller group or sole individual with less numbers or ability. I get this term from my online gaming days, )

I doubt if you hit them with the spray that they would have went to the cops. Jerks like this, of all colors, avoid cops at any cost. Going to police for you spraying them probably wouldn't have even entered their mind. My concern would be if I were to spray the guy in front of me, that the guys behind me would have attacked.

[12-34hom]

All things being equal, If this "subject" placed his hands on your person, i would have hosed him down. You did indicate that he did not touch your person, so your tactic to keep moving was a good one.

Your experience with martial arts could go against you if you injure someone, that has not gone "hands on" with you.

The race card is sure to be played by the actor who tried to intimidate you had you kicked his ass; in a criminal or civil proceding.

IMHO - you done good.

12-34hom.

[cakepaladin]

Yep, I know what "gank" means. I play a level 70 Paladin and Undead Rogue in WoW (Hakkar and Torlthedin servers). I'm very familiar with the term. Hence my name:-)

It wasn't as if I "let" them surround me. Honestly, you are not always going to be in a position where you can do a whole lot about groups of people lingering around outside of stores---especially here in DC. If ya did you'd never leave your house. So there's a fine line between paranoia and having one's ninja perception tingle:-) I'm being a bit sarcastic, but honestly I saw them standing there and had my 9-week old puppy with me sitting in the passenger seat while I ran quickly into the store. There wasn't much that I was going to be able to do. I wasn't going to go back into the store and stand there for 30 minutes until they left, and I wasn't going to take off running. Living around a large city often means you gotta suck up other people's bad behavior sometimes. No exceptions. But you have to be prepared to take action when necessary. In this case it wasn't necessaryt, but that's not to say that the same group wouldn't have tried it on someone else 30 minutes later. They might have. I don't know because I got in my truck and got out of Dodge fast.

Anyway...thanks for all the advice folks. It's good to be back on the forum.

Regards,
John

[threegun]

Say to the panhandler LEAVE ME ALONE! followed by DON'T ROB ME I DON"T HAVE ANY MONEY! Move away creating space.

This absolutely has worked many times. The panhandler is perplexed and frightened that witnesses might believe your statement. They think you are crazy as well. They leave you alone.

If they don't leave you alone and escalate the situation you have given witnesses something positive in your defense to say to interviewing police. Well officer I heard the shooter say "DON'T ROB ME I DON"T HAVE ANY MONEY" just before firing his gun.

[DeathRodent]

I think before you pepperspray someone its better if they smack you first - preferably hard enought so it still shows when the police arrive.

Unfair as it sounds in this day and age you have to let yourself be victimized first then you have the right to defend.

Otherwise the media will put all the blame on you.

[Doggieman]

I'm a fan of pepper spray and carry it with me as often as I can since I can't carry a gun (Calif.).

Whether to spray or not is up to you. But you must always maintain what I call "wind awareness." Hopefully you will be spraying at about 6 feet. Closer and you are in danger. Farther away and it'll miss. You must try to get yourself upwind. Or at worst on crosswind, and then you'll have to compensate for the crosswind.

When I carry pepper spray I always keep a mental note of which way is upwind. This is almost unconscious now.

The benefit of pepper spray is that it (usually) gets you "inside" the perp's "time cycle" a la Boyd's OODA theory.

[Drach]

I read an account where some guy was harrassing a CCP holder, getting in his face, asking for money, etc. So the CCP holder gets nervous OBVIOUSLY, and pulls his gun. So the BG just stands there and says "What? I never touched you, what are you going to do SHOOT Me? Go ahead!"

You can picture that uncomfortable situation. They BG is OBVIOUSLY "in your space" but hasn't REALLY done anything "wrong".

What DO you do? If you have a cell, call the police - that is intimidation, but it certainly is not an excuse for pulling your gun, although I KNOW I would put my hand on it.

And to the original point - what ARE you going to do, beat up 7 guys - no.

Mace is great - I carry it (Kimber LifeAct Guardian Angel) sometimes but not often enough. Certainly you can't be charged with Brandishing if all you have is mace.