Protecting innocent bystanders from your defensive fire - Page 2

shield20 · October 20, 2006, 07:44 AM

I saw something in Gabe Suarez's book about crouching when having to engage with bystanders in the background - assuming typical gunfight ranges (i.e. close), allows rounds to still be quickly fired, still be aimed into vitals, but at a 30-40 degree upward angle that would miss the innocents.

ATW525 · October 20, 2006, 08:07 AM

An interesting news story.

Apparantly in PA your not criminally responsable for hitting bystanders as long as you're acting in legimate self defense.

Also some quotes from various related case law from Florida:

In Brown v. State, 94 So. 874, 874 (Fla. 1922), the Florida Supreme Court held that “[i]f the killing of the party intended to be killed would, under all the circumstances, have been excusable or justifiable homicide upon the theory of self-defense, then the unintended killing of a bystander, by a random shot fired in the proper and prudent exercise of such self-defense, is also excusable or justifiable.” See also Foreman v. State, 47 So. 2d 308 (Fla. 1950); 15B Fla. Jur 2d Criminal Law § 3431 (“if the slaying of an attacker would in the circumstances be self-defense, the person attacked will be free from liability if, in attempting to defend himself, he unintentionally kills a third
person.”); V.M. v. State, 766 So. 2d 280 (Fla. 4th DCA 2000)(where self-defense is a viable defense to the charge of battery on an intended victim, the defense also operates to excuse the battery on the unintended victim).

There's been similiar case law in other states as well. Of course even if you don't face criminal charges you could very likely end up facing civil action and at the very least you'll have to live with yourself.

Dr. Courtney · October 20, 2006, 09:22 AM

Quote:

While I agree that innocent bystanders dying is a serious issue not to be taken lightly. I think one aspect that should be considered in how things would play out after a worst case scenario is the felony murder rule. Part of the felony murder rules makes any participant in a felony criminally responsible for any deaths that occur during or in furtherance of that felony.

This kind of law varies from state to state. You might want to know what the deal is in your state.

Michael Courtney

**JohnKSa** · October 20, 2006, 12:42 PM

First of all, I tend to agree that the best way to protect bystanders is to make sure all your shots hit the attacker in the torso.

But branching out a bit, I think the amount of care taken depends on the situation. In a situation like the Luby massacre in Killeen, it's far more important to immediately stop the attacker than it is to agonize over shooting angles and pass-thrus. In that situation, the attacker was methodically executing people--stopping him was critical and any time lost meant more deaths. Risking your life (as the protector--possibly the sole protector--of the innocents) to prevent a pass thru or to maneuver for a "safer" shooting lane might well end up with you dead and the attacker continuing his executions.

Always be aware of your target and what's beyond it but realize that in some cases holding your fire could be much more costly than shooting.

I've said this before, but I guess it's worth repeating. It's important to remember what the THREAT is. The threat is the attacker--He's also shooting, and if you think he's giving thought to his shooting angles and pass-thru shots you're sadly mistaken. The FIRST order of business is to neutralize the attacker as quickly as possible. I'm not saying to blaze away indiscriminately, but it's important to keep in mind that YOU are not the primary threat to bystanders--the attacker is.

Dr. Courtney · October 20, 2006, 02:19 PM

Quote:

But branching out a bit, I think the amount of care taken depends on the situation. In a situation like the Luby massacre in Killeen, it's far more important to immediately stop the attacker than it is to agonize over shooting angles and pass-thrus. In that situation, the attacker was methodically executing people--stopping him was critical and any time lost meant more deaths. Risking your life (as the protector--possibly the sole protector--of the innocents) to prevent a pass thru or to maneuver for a "safer" shooting lane might well end up with you dead and the attacker continuing his executions.

Always be aware of your target and what's beyond it but realize that in some cases holding your fire could be much more costly than shooting.

I've said this before, but I guess it's worth repeating. It's important to remember what the THREAT is. The threat is the attacker--He's also shooting, and if you think he's giving thought to his shooting angles and pass-thru shots you're sadly mistaken. The FIRST order of business is to neutralize the attacker as quickly as possible. I'm not saying to blaze away indiscriminately, but it's important to keep in mind that YOU are not the primary threat to bystanders--the attacker is.

Good points about assessing the relative risks of pass throughs. I was thinking more about a retail type scenario where the defensive shooter is behind a counter with a solid wall behind him but the bad guys were in front of the counter with lots of innocent bystanders in the background. The Luby type massacre is different.

Michael Courtney

MisterPX · October 22, 2006, 10:29 PM

You may be able to avade criminal charges for shooting an innocent bystander, but you sure as hell won't evade a civil trial. Make your shots count, and this is a moot point. If they're close enough to threaten your person, they should be close enough to make COM hits. If the threat is a ways away harming others, you've got time to make your shot count. Practice with your CCW, once a month ain't gonna cut it.

shep854 · October 23, 2006, 08:17 PM

I believe Clint Smith said it best; "Every bullet comes with a lawyer attached."

October 20, 2006, 12:42 PM	#29
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,972	First of all, I tend to agree that the best way to protect bystanders is to make sure all your shots hit the attacker in the torso. But branching out a bit, I think the amount of care taken depends on the situation. In a situation like the Luby massacre in Killeen, it's far more important to immediately stop the attacker than it is to agonize over shooting angles and pass-thrus. In that situation, the attacker was methodically executing people--stopping him was critical and any time lost meant more deaths. Risking your life (as the protector--possibly the sole protector--of the innocents) to prevent a pass thru or to maneuver for a "safer" shooting lane might well end up with you dead and the attacker continuing his executions. Always be aware of your target and what's beyond it but realize that in some cases holding your fire could be much more costly than shooting. I've said this before, but I guess it's worth repeating. It's important to remember what the THREAT is. The threat is the attacker--He's also shooting, and if you think he's giving thought to his shooting angles and pass-thru shots you're sadly mistaken. The FIRST order of business is to neutralize the attacker as quickly as possible. I'm not saying to blaze away indiscriminately, but it's important to keep in mind that YOU are not the primary threat to bystanders--the attacker is. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

October 23, 2006, 08:17 PM	#32
shep854 Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2004 Location: Birmingham AL Posts: 632	I believe Clint Smith said it best; "Every bullet comes with a lawyer attached." __________________ Powder smoke- The Smell of FREEDOM! I don't shoot to kill; I shoot to live. Registration? NEVER!!

October 20, 2006, 07:44 AM	#26
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	I saw something in Gabe Suarez's book about crouching when having to engage with bystanders in the background - assuming typical gunfight ranges (i.e. close), allows rounds to still be quickly fired, still be aimed into vitals, but at a 30-40 degree upward angle that would miss the innocents.

October 20, 2006, 08:07 AM	#27
ATW525 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2005 Location: Concord, NH Posts: 2,723	An interesting news story. Apparantly in PA your not criminally responsable for hitting bystanders as long as you're acting in legimate self defense. Also some quotes from various related case law from Florida: In Brown v. State, 94 So. 874, 874 (Fla. 1922), the Florida Supreme Court held that “[i]f the killing of the party intended to be killed would, under all the circumstances, have been excusable or justifiable homicide upon the theory of self-defense, then the unintended killing of a bystander, by a random shot fired in the proper and prudent exercise of such self-defense, is also excusable or justifiable.” See also Foreman v. State, 47 So. 2d 308 (Fla. 1950); 15B Fla. Jur 2d Criminal Law § 3431 (“if the slaying of an attacker would in the circumstances be self-defense, the person attacked will be free from liability if, in attempting to defend himself, he unintentionally kills a third person.”); V.M. v. State, 766 So. 2d 280 (Fla. 4th DCA 2000)(where self-defense is a viable defense to the charge of battery on an intended victim, the defense also operates to excuse the battery on the unintended victim). There's been similiar case law in other states as well. Of course even if you don't face criminal charges you could very likely end up facing civil action and at the very least you'll have to live with yourself.

October 22, 2006, 10:29 PM	#31
MisterPX Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2006 Location: Amerika's Doyleland Posts: 809	You may be able to avade criminal charges for shooting an innocent bystander, but you sure as hell won't evade a civil trial. Make your shots count, and this is a moot point. If they're close enough to threaten your person, they should be close enough to make COM hits. If the threat is a ways away harming others, you've got time to make your shot count. Practice with your CCW, once a month ain't gonna cut it.