Help Indentitfly This Revolver

kwhi43 · December 30, 2013, 07:34 PM

I bought this used in 1965 for 17.00. A hundred balls came with it. I have shot
it about two hundread times. Shoots very good. Got it out today and was looking
at just wondering . It has no marks except the "PN" on the cylinder. It is a 31
caliber. Very light trigger pull and locks up tight. The scene on the cylinder is of
a stage coach being attacked by Indians. Back in the 60's we used to call these
Baby Dragoon's. So can anyone shed any light on this?

noelf2 · December 30, 2013, 07:55 PM

May be a defarbed F.I.E. imported baby dragoon. If that's a brass frame, I had one just like it, gave it to Doc Hoy as it was a basket case and thought he might be able to use the parts. Is there a serial number on the butt?

kwhi43 · December 30, 2013, 08:08 PM

No number, and not de-farbed.

noelf2 · December 30, 2013, 08:09 PM

Frame looks defarbed, well worn, or has some cast imperfections. Just saying. Never saw one without a number or some kind of stamp on the butt. Maybe a kit gun..??

edit: I think F.I.E. imported baby dragoons in 1970's, so won't be that. Doubt you'll find out much about it. You posted the same thing on THR back in 2008 and didn't get far either.

kwhi43 · December 30, 2013, 08:55 PM

Oh sorry, I don't remember. I hate to repete muself. Some days I don't remember me.

SDC · December 30, 2013, 09:36 PM

The "PN" is an Italian proof, but you'll probably need to take some clear, close-up pictures to get any better than that.

noelf2 · December 30, 2013, 10:00 PM

Quote:

The "PN" is an Italian proof, but you'll probably need to take some clear, close-up pictures to get any better than that.

PN stands for polvere nera, Italian for black powder.

James K · December 30, 2013, 10:09 PM

I don't know what anyone may mean by "defarbed" but that gun 1) is a repro and 2) has had the living c**p buffed out of it. It may function OK and shoot, but it basically has no real value except as a paperweight. (Yes, repros do have some collector value themselves, especially the older ones.)

Jim

Fingers McGee · December 30, 2013, 11:32 PM

See my response over on The High Road

Jim Watson · December 30, 2013, 11:33 PM

Defarb means to remove unsightly foreign proof marks and trademarks from reproduction firearms, commonly to enhance their appearance in reenactments. Period finishes or accelerated wear are applied in the better examples. In the worse examples, fake American trademarks are applied.

kwhi43 · December 31, 2013, 12:18 AM

I and my daughter had lots of fun shooting the paper weight. I've had it for
over 40 years. I bet most of your guns are just paper weights also. I really
don't care what it is worth as it's not for sale. I will give it to my daughter as
it is the first gun she ever fired. She was 5 at the time.

swathdiver · December 31, 2013, 03:28 AM

Great little guns, lots of fun to shoot! It's going from one good home to another someday it seems too.

ASM or an FIE/EIG import if I were to venture a guess. Someone on another forum has one just like it, maybe Tim?

gyvel · December 31, 2013, 07:23 AM

I bought one of these back in the later 1960s from a Miami toy store chain called Lionel's Playworld. If I recall, it was an F.I.E. import, and cost a princely $26.00. It was definitely a lot of fun to shoot.

Doc Hoy · December 31, 2013, 09:04 AM

Was a real tack driver.

The first three shots I fired from it went into a four inch dia. circle (two hand hold) at fifteen yards.

I know that is not up to KWHI's standards ( ;o) ) but for me thats purdy good.

I agree with KWHI in his point that a given revolver or a given "anything" for that matter has many different values. But the most realistic value is set by the person who owns it.

sltm1 · December 31, 2013, 11:49 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the roll engraving the one found on 1849 Colts?

Rigmarol · December 31, 2013, 11:51 AM

I have my grandfather's old squirrel rifle. .22 single shot.

If anyone else came across it they'd think it were just another tomato stake.

But it will be the last gun I ever give up if I had to sell them all to feed the grandkids.

My son has called dibs on it but I've made it plain it is for HIS son. But I'll let him teach his son with it LOL.

Value? Hell yeah.
Price? impossible to determine.

Doc Hoy · December 31, 2013, 03:37 PM

that is a Chinese knock-off of a Smith and Wesson Police. The barrel is loose, the crane falls out when you swing the cylinder out. It doesn't stay cocked. Moving the hammer does not advance the cylinder.

My father brought it back from China in 1945 after trading a pack of cigarettes for it.

I also have an Iver Johnson .32 double action which was probably bought new for about 4.00 in about 1920. It is still fully functional and the nickel is pretty good. No way it is worth more than about forty bucks.

But it belonged to my Aunt who died at age 99 about six years ago. She carried it in her purse wherever she went including to a bar where she was swilling Gin and tonic with my Dad about two weeks before she crossed over to the other side.

Go ahead and call these revolvers paperweights.

pohill · December 31, 2013, 04:05 PM

I recently sold an ASM BP revolver that had no barrel or frame markings, and it had never been defarbed. Under the loading lever were the faint letters "ASM".
Great looking gun.

Bill Akins · January 4, 2014, 05:59 AM

kwhi43, there does appear to be more markings than just the PN you mentioned on your cylinder. In your 4th picture of your first post, (the pic of the bottom of the revolver where you can see the serial number), look just above the serial number and there appears to be an "A" marking. Not sure what significance that has, but it is a marking that doesn't appear to be part of the serial number. ASM? (Armi San Marcos?), ASP? (Armi San Palo?)

I tried increasing the contrast in photoshop to give a better view of that "A" and you can see that in my attachment link, along with an arrow pointing to it.

I can tell by the screw holes of the frame being dished out on their edges, that the frame has been heavily buffed at some time. The screws aren't buffed to match the screw holes, so obviously the screws were removed before it was heavily buffed, hence the dished out edges of the screw holes from heavy buffing. So it may indeed have been "defarbed" as someone else suggested. But again, check out that "A" marking above the serial number I mentioned and showed in my attachment, it may be a clue.

Also, have you checked for markings under the loading lever?

Also, check out my second attachment. I also decreased the brightness and increased the contrast to try and see what those two buffed out markings are on the right side of your frame. Check them with a magnifying glass and try to get the light just right so you can see any vestige of detail that might be left there in spite of the heavy buffing. They are heavily buffed out and pretty much destroyed, but under the mag glass with the lighting right, you might maybe get a clue. Something about that forward most mark, brings to mind a CVA (Connecticut Valley Arms) marking, but that's just a gut feel guess on my part. On the most forward positioned mark, it's very hard to make out and even looks a bit like a mushroom cloud who's "stem" of the "cloud" looks slightly to the left of the upper "cloud" instead of the "stem" being centered directly under the "cloud". Of course both of them could also just be heavy dings and I'm reading too much into the forward most marking.

.

Hawg · January 4, 2014, 06:33 AM

Its an ASM. Only four manufacturers made .31's. Colt, Uberti, Palmetto and ASM. Its obviously not a Colt. Palmetto didn't make baby dragoons and Uberti used oval cylinder stops so that leaves ASM.

Bill Akins · January 4, 2014, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Hawg Haggen wrote:
Its an ASM. Only four manufacturers made .31's. Colt, Uberti, Palmetto and ASM. Its obviously not a Colt. Palmetto didn't make baby dragoons and Uberti used oval cylinder stops so that leaves ASM.

Process of elimination deduction. There's your answer KWHI43.

.

kwhi43 · January 4, 2014, 07:12 AM

Yep, I will buy that. It does have a pretty good blue job. Had to be made around
1963 or before. The wedge just comes out with finger pressure. Shoots POI.
Back in the 60's I shot "Buck" in it I bought in a 5lb cloth bag. I think it said
Western Buck. Cost 5.00 a bag then. I used the brass caps in the red plastic
boxes which said "Dixie " on them. DuPont powder was 1.65 a lb. I remember
I bought a I think it was 1861 Navy. It had the ratchet loading lever and said
Repical Arms on it. This was in 1964. Before that in 1961 or 1962 I had a 1851
Navy brass frame 36. Seems just like yesterday. I can remember in the 50's I
had a single shot 22 pistol. Think it was a Whamo. Does that sound right?
Also about 1954 I had a S&W 357, Highway Patrolman. Lots of fun back then.

December 30, 2013, 07:34 PM	#1
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	Help Indentitfly This Revolver I bought this used in 1965 for 17.00. A hundred balls came with it. I have shot it about two hundread times. Shoots very good. Got it out today and was looking at just wondering . It has no marks except the "PN" on the cylinder. It is a 31 caliber. Very light trigger pull and locks up tight. The scene on the cylinder is of a stage coach being attacked by Indians. Back in the 60's we used to call these Baby Dragoon's. So can anyone shed any light on this?

December 30, 2013, 07:55 PM	#2
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	May be a defarbed F.I.E. imported baby dragoon. If that's a brass frame, I had one just like it, gave it to Doc Hoy as it was a basket case and thought he might be able to use the parts. Is there a serial number on the butt? __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

December 30, 2013, 08:09 PM	#4
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	Frame looks defarbed, well worn, or has some cast imperfections. Just saying. Never saw one without a number or some kind of stamp on the butt. Maybe a kit gun..?? edit: I think F.I.E. imported baby dragoons in 1970's, so won't be that. Doubt you'll find out much about it. You posted the same thing on THR back in 2008 and didn't get far either. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither. Last edited by noelf2; December 30, 2013 at 08:32 PM.

December 30, 2013, 09:36 PM	#6
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	The "PN" is an Italian proof, but you'll probably need to take some clear, close-up pictures to get any better than that. __________________ Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.

December 30, 2013, 11:32 PM	#9
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	See my response over on The High Road __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

December 30, 2013, 08:08 PM	#3
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	No number, and not de-farbed.

December 30, 2013, 08:55 PM	#5
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	Oh sorry, I don't remember. I hate to repete muself. Some days I don't remember me.

December 30, 2013, 10:09 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I don't know what anyone may mean by "defarbed" but that gun 1) is a repro and 2) has had the living c**p buffed out of it. It may function OK and shoot, but it basically has no real value except as a paperweight. (Yes, repros do have some collector value themselves, especially the older ones.) Jim

December 30, 2013, 11:33 PM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Defarb means to remove unsightly foreign proof marks and trademarks from reproduction firearms, commonly to enhance their appearance in reenactments. Period finishes or accelerated wear are applied in the better examples. In the worse examples, fake American trademarks are applied.

December 31, 2013, 12:18 AM	#11
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	James K I and my daughter had lots of fun shooting the paper weight. I've had it for over 40 years. I bet most of your guns are just paper weights also. I really don't care what it is worth as it's not for sale. I will give it to my daughter as it is the first gun she ever fired. She was 5 at the time.

December 31, 2013, 03:28 AM	#12
swathdiver Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2012 Location: Treasure Coast, Florida Posts: 335	Great little guns, lots of fun to shoot! It's going from one good home to another someday it seems too. ASM or an FIE/EIG import if I were to venture a guess. Someone on another forum has one just like it, maybe Tim?

December 31, 2013, 07:23 AM	#13
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	I bought one of these back in the later 1960s from a Miami toy store chain called Lionel's Playworld. If I recall, it was an F.I.E. import, and cost a princely $26.00. It was definitely a lot of fun to shoot.

December 31, 2013, 09:04 AM	#14
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	The one that Noel sent to me…. Was a real tack driver. The first three shots I fired from it went into a four inch dia. circle (two hand hold) at fifteen yards. I know that is not up to KWHI's standards ( ;o) ) but for me thats purdy good. I agree with KWHI in his point that a given revolver or a given "anything" for that matter has many different values. But the most realistic value is set by the person who owns it. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. Last edited by Doc Hoy; December 31, 2013 at 09:25 AM.

December 31, 2013, 11:49 AM	#15
sltm1 Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Location: Idaho Posts: 353	Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the roll engraving the one found on 1849 Colts?

December 31, 2013, 11:51 AM	#16
Rigmarol Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 344	I have my grandfather's old squirrel rifle. .22 single shot. If anyone else came across it they'd think it were just another tomato stake. But it will be the last gun I ever give up if I had to sell them all to feed the grandkids. My son has called dibs on it but I've made it plain it is for HIS son. But I'll let him teach his son with it LOL. Value? Hell yeah. Price? impossible to determine.

December 31, 2013, 03:37 PM	#17
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	I have a revolver that is a Chinese knock-off of a Smith and Wesson Police. The barrel is loose, the crane falls out when you swing the cylinder out. It doesn't stay cocked. Moving the hammer does not advance the cylinder. My father brought it back from China in 1945 after trading a pack of cigarettes for it. I also have an Iver Johnson .32 double action which was probably bought new for about 4.00 in about 1920. It is still fully functional and the nickel is pretty good. No way it is worth more than about forty bucks. But it belonged to my Aunt who died at age 99 about six years ago. She carried it in her purse wherever she went including to a bar where she was swilling Gin and tonic with my Dad about two weeks before she crossed over to the other side. Go ahead and call these revolvers paperweights. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. Last edited by Doc Hoy; December 31, 2013 at 03:42 PM.

December 31, 2013, 04:05 PM	#18
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	I recently sold an ASM BP revolver that had no barrel or frame markings, and it had never been defarbed. Under the loading lever were the faint letters "ASM". Great looking gun.

January 4, 2014, 06:33 AM	#20
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Its an ASM. Only four manufacturers made .31's. Colt, Uberti, Palmetto and ASM. Its obviously not a Colt. Palmetto didn't make baby dragoons and Uberti used oval cylinder stops so that leaves ASM.

January 4, 2014, 07:12 AM	#22
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	Yep, I will buy that. It does have a pretty good blue job. Had to be made around 1963 or before. The wedge just comes out with finger pressure. Shoots POI. Back in the 60's I shot "Buck" in it I bought in a 5lb cloth bag. I think it said Western Buck. Cost 5.00 a bag then. I used the brass caps in the red plastic boxes which said "Dixie " on them. DuPont powder was 1.65 a lb. I remember I bought a I think it was 1861 Navy. It had the ratchet loading lever and said Repical Arms on it. This was in 1964. Before that in 1961 or 1962 I had a 1851 Navy brass frame 36. Seems just like yesterday. I can remember in the 50's I had a single shot 22 pistol. Think it was a Whamo. Does that sound right? Also about 1954 I had a S&W 357, Highway Patrolman. Lots of fun back then.