Shooting out a Barrel

[deerslayer303]

A post in another thread has me chewing on this for more than a minute. So here goes. Just how many patched round balls would it take to shoot a barrel out? I mean seems to me it would take a BAZILLION, seeing as how the patch is nice and lubed up and we're not shooting jacketed bullets with a steel core. Should I put the old barrel (the barrel is in good shape just the blue is worn, the bore is fine) back on my GPR and save the new barrel for a later? I do think I will put the old barrel on just to beat around in the woods.

[the rifleer]

I think the barrel would wear out more from you cleaning it and corrosion from powder than it would from actually shooting it. Patched balls don't create as much friction as a cartridge loaded in a modern rifle does, and those last about 10,000 rounds before you start to see a noticeable depreciation in accuracy.

I say you buy several hundred pounds of powder and as many thousands of lead balls as you can and find out

[deerslayer303]

I say you buy several hundred pounds of powder and as many thousands of lead balls as you can and find out

That is a MIGHTY FINE idea!

[B.L.E.]

Modern guns erode more from the heat of the burning powder than from bullet friction. That's why the barrels wear out at the throat right in front of the chamber first. A shot out barrel on a modern centerfire can often be revived by cutting a little off the breech and rechambering it. .22 rimfire barrels last nearly forever not so much because they shoot lead bullets but because there is so little powder in the cartridge.

If you want your muzzleloading barrel to last forever, don't use a wooden ramrod to load it. It embeds dirt and grit which acts as a lapping compound and causes wear to the muzzle, ruining accuracy. Use a loading rod that has a bore guide to keep the rod from contacting the muzzle.

[Beagle333]

Lemme see..... if I've had my rifle since.....oh, say 8 months now, and I've used . . . ±95 balls . . . . Dangitt, I'm done too old to find out how long it'll last!

[tatartot]

I have a 30 year ole CVA Montain rifle I bought new.I shot it comps
for years.It still shots as good as any other I have.I guess it will
out last me.

The one big differance I can see between a modern rifle & a muzzle
loader is how many shots do you put threw each in a life time.The
post above talks about heat being the culprit.

I would think a muzzle loader would have a much longer time
to cool, between shots.I don't think you will ever shot out that
barrel.
JMOHOP TT

[Pahoo]

I don't think you will ever shoot out that
barrel.

I have seen a lot of damage done to M/L barrels but never seen one that was actually shot out. Most or all of the damage was caused by human error. ..

As far as what barrel to use, see if you can tell whick one shoots the best. I would likely go with the older barrel. I have an old barrel in worse shape than yours, on the outside, that I'm stripping down and doing a plumb-brown on. .

Be Safe !!!

[Wild Bill Bucks]

I have an old "Kit Gun" that was bought at a Wally world store about 30 years ago. It is a .45 caliber and I shoot round balls through it.

My favorite past-time is sitting above some strip pits, at the ranch, and shooting snakes and turtles. Some days we may shoot 50 or 60 times in an afternoon, and I have done this for years. It's how I taught my kids to shoot, as it was more fun for them than shooting a piece of paper, and taught them safety at the same time.

I would not even attempt to guess how many rounds have been through the old gun, and it shoots as well now, as it did when it was new. I would venture to say it has seen more shots through it, than any hunting rifle will ever see.

[DPris]

About 15 years ago I knew a guy in a local "Mountain Man" club that was shooting an original Hawken. Regularly.
The barrel was fine, and that steel wasn't the equal of what you'll find in today's reproductions.
Denis

[Noz]

I know a muzzle loader builder and he has often regaled me with stories of the "good old days" with several hundred shooters at a meet.
He say that "shooting a barrel smooth" is very possible and is seen with some regularity. It results from a combination of powder fouling, lube and lead being baked into the pores of the metal.
Solution: Put a cap on the nipple, lower the hammer, urinate in the barrel until it is full. Let set for about an hour and then clean thoroughly.
Problem solved.

[cheatin charlie]

Let me throw my 2 cents in this conversation. A few years ago when I was
shooting muzzleloading bullseye competition I was in a fellow shooters
basement and he had several heavy bench barrels in the rafters overhead
I asked him what they were for and he said they were no good because
they were burned out. I took one down and looked thru it and starting at
the breech and going up the barrel quite a ways the rifling was eroded out
like on a cartridge gun. These barrels were over .50 cal and they were
using heavy charges of black powder shooting at 100 yds. He said if you
cut them off and rebreach them they would be too short to get the velocity
needed to be competative. This was back when Douglas was still making
muzzleloading barrels. So it can be done but very hard to do with an offhand
hunting or target rifle with normal loads.

[B.L.E.]

Define "worn out", I think that most competitive bench rest shooters have a whole different standard for "worn out" than your typical hunter or casual shooter does.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Shooting out a Barrel

Hm~m. Good question Deerslayer. I haven't a clue. All I can tell yaw is it ain't going to happen here. By the way its nice to see that litt'l Green bulb of yours light up again. Welcome back.

[cheatin charlie]

A target rifle or pistol no matter what kind has to at least hold the 10 ring
but perferably the X ring at whatever distance you are shooting at without
human error. If yours won't you will lose the edge to other shooters who's
weapon will. All other things being equal you lose.

[kwhi43]

That is correct! You can't go to Friendship to shoot under a handicap.
That's why we switched to Swiss powder. This year "well last week" the
main Pistol championship was won by one point. The wife won the women's
championship by one point. I won the revolver match by wide shot out. Me
and the second place had the same score. So you can't even give up a point
When people complain to me about the high price of Swiss, 22.00 a lb. I just
say, what's the price of a "10" I'm getting too old for al lof this stuff

[deerslayer303]

Thanks for all of the replys. I enjoy reading you guys' thoughts. The old barrel for my GPR has alot of scarring on the muzzle from loading (like that when I got it) but the inside looks fantastic. So, can I take this thing to the machine shop at work and have them clean it up. Shouldn't hurt it as long as its square, right? I mean, as you can tell from that video the thing shoots pretty good, it just bothers me . But then again I'm gonna beat around in the woods with it, so I guess it doesn't matter.

[deerslayer303]

By the way its nice to see that litt'l Green bulb of yours light up again. Welcome back.

Thanks Sure Shot,
I've just been busy, packing up this place for the move. You will never know how much crap you have actually accumulated until you try to pack it all up.
I was having withdrawls so I had to get on here and read a bunch to get my fix hehe.

[Rachen]

My 1858 has about 15,000 rounds through it so far and I owned it since I was 14 years old.

I used a dentist's LED scope to look down the barrel as I was oiling the gun some time ago, and the rifling looked just as fine as it did when new.

[bedbugbilly]

Over the years I've heard stories (oral stories) of ML barrels that were "shot out" and had to be "refreshed". I think you have to take a lot of things into consideration . . especially when talking about originals. The steel used for the barrels varied . . we know that for sure. Also, remember that they were "utility tools" . . i.e. they were shot, often reloaded, kept loaded, stood in the corner, etc. so that the fouling had more chance to "work" on a barrel. Lubrications varied. My grandfather (born 1867) had a 45 cal. half stock "plains rifle" that he had purchased from one of the pioneers who came into Michigan in the 1830s. He shot it for years. His patch lube was bacon grease. Bacon that was salted . . which in turn, would work on the barrel.

Riflings varied as well . . some shallow, some deep . . . many "hand cut" on a primate rifling machine as opposed to machine rifling. My point . . . I suppose that a barrel with shallow rifling, when considering fouling, wear, etc. could be "shot out" over time. In looking at originals, we've all seen a variety of rifling . . . some even resembling a hexagon (six lands and grooves) while others, round.

I've seen, handled and even repaired a number of originals . . . half stocks, full stocks, etc. The one thing that I have noticed over the years is often times there is "muzzle wear" due to large numbers of rounds being pushed home with wood and steel ramrods, etc. That's just the "nature of the animal". No matter how you try to keep a ramrod clean, it is exposed to lubricants which in turn attract "dirt".

I have also worked on originals in which it was very evident that they had been "re-breeched" at some time . . . i.e. breech cut off, rethreaded for breech plug, etc. Pin lug locations changed, etc. I have also seen and owned original barrels by themselves in which these changes are evident.

The majority of us today, utilize our ML rifles/pistols as something that is taken out for target practice, shoots, etc. . . . and yes, hunting . . . but my point is that we probably clean our weapons much more often and much more thoroughly than our ancestors did. We "prize" them . . . and there's nothing wrong with that. As a result, there isn't as much fouling, etc. left in the bore to "work" on the rifling and cause damage. Just think of how you clean your Colt or Remington . . . a far cry of what was actually done in the field when they were often submerged to the grip in hot water and lye soap.

As already referred to . . . look at the 22. I have some that are 60 years old that have had thousands of rounds put through them - the bores are still pristine. On the other hand, I have my Dad's old 1915 Stevens Favorite that also has had thousands of round put through it. The rifling on that is still very evident but I would rate the bore as only fair due to the pitting, etc. caused by a lack of good cleaning and fouling from early cartridges which took its toll over the years.

Personally, I think that the barrels today, whether they be from run of the mill "kit"guns or such manufacturers as Green River, Green Mountain, CVA and even older barrels by such folks as Bill Large will last a person a lifetime if wel taken care of. If you're like me, you have more than one rifle/pistol, etc. that you shoot so you switch off. I suppose if your are a person who "shoots one gun", . . and you shoot it everyday, there would be a possibility of "shooting out the barrel" . . . but I would think that would be the rare exception.

Just as a matter of curiosity, I'd like to hear from those who strictly shoot ML shotgun. I have a brother who shoots a lot of sporting clays, etc. with his ML double barrel. He goes through a lot of rounds every year but I haven't ever heard him ever say anything about internal barrel wear. Yes, it's a smoothbore but one barrel is choked so I would have to think that at some point, with all the shot, wads, etc. leaving the muzzle that there would be wear to the I.D. of the muzzle.

Just my worthless thoughts!

[B.L.E.]

Just as a matter of curiosity, I'd like to hear from those who strictly shoot ML shotgun. I have a brother who shoots a lot of sporting clays, etc. with his ML double barrel. He goes through a lot of rounds every year but I haven't ever heard him ever say anything about internal barrel wear. Yes, it's a smoothbore but one barrel is choked so I would have to think that at some point, with all the shot, wads, etc. leaving the muzzle that there would be wear to the I.D. of the muzzle.

I shoot a lot of muzzleloading trap. Three TMLRA shoots per year at Brady TX where the trap matches consist of four 15 bird matches and two 25 bird matches, 110 birds total plus practice and reentry matches. Also I make the annual Shotgun Soiree hosted by the Red River Renegades up in Electra TX. This is four days of nothing but shotgun shooting, I almost used up a 25 pound bag of shot there.
I have lost count of how many 25 pound bags of shot and how many 1000 count packages of cardboard wads I have gone through over the years and as far as I can tell, you can't hardly wear out a shotgun barrel.

The Electra shoot draws a lot of the people who shoot trap and skeet at the nationals up in Friendship and you see a lot of old originals, some with damascus barrels, still being used.

[arcticap]

I've heard that muzzle loader barrels are often made of softer steel than smokeless barrels. That's not to say their quality isn't good because the steel easily exceeds muzzle loading requirements. But the rifling seems to wear out sooner or more easily than if it were a center fire barrel, especially given the lower velocity of the average BP loads. As good shooting as they were, I did hear that about Douglas barrels. And I've heard it said more than once about how fast accuracy dropped off for some TC or Lyman barrels after a relatively small number of years.
The major BP barrel makers probably all use similar softer steels even today.
Some of the better smokeless barrels are also known to wear out faster than others even though their makers are well known for making very accurate barrels.
Maybe that's how the manufacturers prevent wearing out a lot tooling while producing barrels, and to help keep their cost more affordable. Yet the barrels are used on some of the better brands of guns and for semi-custom made barrels, including for both muzzle loaders and smokeless guns. I doubt that they use the same steel for both, but maybe they use steel that's slightly on the softer side for both sides of the industry. However the happy trade off is that their accuracy is better than average.
I guess that my point is that using the harder steels is not the priority of some of the traditional muzzle loading barrel makers.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

For those who want to keep their original barrels as long a possible and tighten up its grouping some {any barrel} have your barrel Cryogenic treated. Fairly cheap and it works. Ballistol usage will help prolong your barrels life also "but is best used outside in the open air while sitting in your neighbors yard or at the end of your driveway."

[James K]

"Dangitt, I'm done too old to find out how long it'll last!"

And I am too old to be around for the report.

Jim

[duelist1954]

I've never seen a worn out barrel because most front stuffers aren't shot that much, but eventually those cloth patches are going to polish the inside of the bore enough to loosen it up a bit. When it does just go to a 0.005" bigger ball.

I did wear out the muzzle on one of my early rifles when I was shooting flintlocks competitively. That was because I wasn't using a muzzle protector to load or clean.

By the end of the season my groups were expanding. I had a machinist buddy measure the bore and it was wearing a little in an oval shape. We cut off two inches of barrel on the lathe and accuracy was restored.

A couple of bucks spent on a muzzle guard prevented any repeats of that problem.