why "terminal performance" shouldn't even be argued about anymore

Evil Monkey · August 15, 2015, 07:53 PM

graphic

Bullet in the heart, I suppose.......stands there like nothing happened until he falls.

Dragline45 · August 15, 2015, 08:12 PM

Not sure what terminal performance has to do with this. Just because you get shot in the heart, doesn't mean you are automatically going to drop dead on the spot. Deer get shot in the heart all the time and run a couple hundred yards before dropping.

Bill DeShivs · August 15, 2015, 08:24 PM

The ONLY sure and immediate stop is a central nervous system shop.

Evil Monkey · August 15, 2015, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Just because you get shot in the heart, doesn't mean you are automatically going to drop dead on the spot.

Exactly. But it wont stop people from going..."hurr durr 45 is more power hurr durr".

Point of the video was to demonstrate how long one can stay conscious and potentially do you harm after a mortal injury at point blank range.

Sharkbite · August 15, 2015, 08:46 PM

Nothing new there. There is no such thing as " stopping power". Bleeding out takes time (hydraulic failure). The ONLY sure way to instantly stop an attacker is a hit to the CNS.

Even the vaunted 12ga with buckshot has failed to stop badguys with centermass hits.

Psychological stops do occur, but i wouldnt want to count on the badguy giving up just cause he got shot

As has been discussed on these pages before. Any reasonable handgun caliber will do.... None of them do well. Centermass is still the best aiming point, as it gives you the largest target while giving reasonable effect on damaging structures.

A CNS hit is pretty tough to do under the stress of a sudden violent attack.

Theohazard · August 16, 2015, 02:58 AM

Sharkbite hit the nail on the head. And Evil Monkey, while I agree with your premise that most arguments about handgun "stopping power" and "terminal performance" are pointless and ridiculous, you're using the exact same unscientific reasoning that those who say, "hurr durr 45 is more power hurr durr" use.

One example -- like what happened in this video -- can't make or break a scientific argument. If you're going to use this video to prove your argument, that means you have to accept others' arguments using the same kind of evidence. If someone produces a video that shows someone dropping like a rock after being shot once with a .45, does that prove that a .45 will always drop someone immediately? Of course not, just as your video doesn't prove that terminal performance shouldn't be argued about. Someone who still believes the bunk that there's a large difference in defensive handgun caliber effectiveness will just point out that this video is an outlier. Or they'll say it's obvious he was using an under-powered handgun caliber.

Again, I don't disagree with your overall premiss, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate to point out the flaws in your argument.

DA/SA Fan · August 16, 2015, 03:22 AM

Hurr durr. Must of shot himself with a .22. If it was a .357 he would have dropped like a rock!

**Tom Servo** · August 16, 2015, 06:42 AM

The video is needlessly graphic for our purposes.

We don't know any details on the incident. What cartridge was used? What organs did the bullet damage? Heck, is the incident even real, or was it staged?

We don't have the data for a meaningful discussion.

August 15, 2015, 07:53 PM	#1
Evil Monkey Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Posts: 812	why "terminal performance" shouldn't even be argued about anymore graphic Bullet in the heart, I suppose.......stands there like nothing happened until he falls. __________________ BREAKING NEWS: Local man found in the street yelling "1911" and "45" while drooling, more at 11:00. Last edited by Tom Servo; August 16, 2015 at 06:42 AM.

August 15, 2015, 08:24 PM	#3
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,980	The ONLY sure and immediate stop is a central nervous system shop. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

August 16, 2015, 02:58 AM	#6
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Location: Western PA Posts: 3,829	Sharkbite hit the nail on the head. And Evil Monkey, while I agree with your premise that most arguments about handgun "stopping power" and "terminal performance" are pointless and ridiculous, you're using the exact same unscientific reasoning that those who say, "hurr durr 45 is more power hurr durr" use. One example -- like what happened in this video -- can't make or break a scientific argument. If you're going to use this video to prove your argument, that means you have to accept others' arguments using the same kind of evidence. If someone produces a video that shows someone dropping like a rock after being shot once with a .45, does that prove that a .45 will always drop someone immediately? Of course not, just as your video doesn't prove that terminal performance shouldn't be argued about. Someone who still believes the bunk that there's a large difference in defensive handgun caliber effectiveness will just point out that this video is an outlier. Or they'll say it's obvious he was using an under-powered handgun caliber. Again, I don't disagree with your overall premiss, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate to point out the flaws in your argument. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

August 16, 2015, 03:22 AM	#7
DA/SA Fan Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2014 Location: Missouri Posts: 661	Hurr durr. Must of shot himself with a .22. If it was a .357 he would have dropped like a rock! __________________ "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!" CASTLE DOCTRINE STRONGLY ENFORCED "Happiness is a warm gun"

August 16, 2015, 06:42 AM	#8
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	The video is needlessly graphic for our purposes. We don't know any details on the incident. What cartridge was used? What organs did the bullet damage? Heck, is the incident even real, or was it staged? We don't have the data for a meaningful discussion. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

August 15, 2015, 08:12 PM	#2
Dragline45 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2010 Posts: 3,513	Not sure what terminal performance has to do with this. Just because you get shot in the heart, doesn't mean you are automatically going to drop dead on the spot. Deer get shot in the heart all the time and run a couple hundred yards before dropping.

August 15, 2015, 08:46 PM	#5
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	Nothing new there. There is no such thing as " stopping power". Bleeding out takes time (hydraulic failure). The ONLY sure way to instantly stop an attacker is a hit to the CNS. Even the vaunted 12ga with buckshot has failed to stop badguys with centermass hits. Psychological stops do occur, but i wouldnt want to count on the badguy giving up just cause he got shot As has been discussed on these pages before. Any reasonable handgun caliber will do.... None of them do well. Centermass is still the best aiming point, as it gives you the largest target while giving reasonable effect on damaging structures. A CNS hit is pretty tough to do under the stress of a sudden violent attack.

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