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May 20, 2002, 12:30 PM | #1 |
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Traditional Korean Arts?
Alright, here's a question. Despite the hyperbole surrounding most Taekwondo promotional material which advertizes it as a 1000 year old Korean Art, most honest practicioners (including some written histories, like Choi's) will admit that it is mixed with a lot of Shotokan techniques. Although they still maintain that it has a base of tarditional Korean kicking.
My question is, are there any surviving and intact pure Korean arts? Or is anyone attempting to reconstruct a pure Korean art (kind of like we're doing with Medieval Western Arts today)? Regards, Matt |
May 20, 2002, 02:23 PM | #2 | |
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Matt:
No. First of all, there is absolutely NO historical, documentary or archeological evidence that there ever was a native, "pure" Korean martial art. Any "systematic" art being practiced in pre-colonial Korea was Chinese in origin. Koreans did have some folks style wrestling and such (the precursor to Ssireum), which were common in most Mongol/Ural-Altaic tribal cultures. Quote:
BTW, there is this persistent myth that "ancient" martial arts involved punching, kicking and grappling (this bizzarre myth of unarmed man beating the armed). It wasn't so. Most parent systems or arts that modern martial arts claim as ancestors were invariably weapon arts, either about using the weapons or preventing the draws of the same in close quarters. Weapons were mostly spears, swords and bows (the big three of the ancient world). This "farm implementation" business is largely bunk. Then there were contest sports like many forms of wrestling in most cultures, which was most certainly not "martial" (war-fighting) in nature, but competitive events. Skorzeny
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May 20, 2002, 02:52 PM | #3 |
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Resources?
Skorzeny,
just out of curiousity, are there books, etc., that show the typical techniques used in the "ancient" martial arts? In the old days?
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May 20, 2002, 03:43 PM | #4 |
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May 21, 2002, 07:18 AM | #5 | ||||||
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Of course, "documented" is another case. It could very well be that these techniques always remained undocumented and informal. And of course, most fighting techniques are pretty universal (the human body can only move in so many ways, after all), so "pure Korean" technique may be a bit of a misnomer anyway. Quote:
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And Halffast said, Quote:
Regards, Matt |
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May 21, 2002, 12:26 PM | #6 | |
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While anything is possible, I would doubt that any martial art is "pure". The problem is how would you go about proving or disproving it? David
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May 21, 2002, 03:22 PM | #7 |
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Ancient? Modern? Pure? Innovated? What difference should it make. Unless you are into history. I personally look for practicallity. And if you look at most so called traditional martial arts, you will see a lot of impractical techniques. And a lot of modern ones for that matter. I mean to me, what does it matter where an art originated? What matters is does it work? Does it apply to what it was supposed to? And as for some of the traditional arts originating on the battlefield? I doubt it. Unless a lot of techniques have seriously changed over the years. A lot of the techniques are too flambouyant and impractical for use on the battlefield. If these techniques were used, then they must have had some sloppy form. Because I'm sure the battles did not look as precise as the scenes on late night "Kung Fu Theater" do.
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May 21, 2002, 04:14 PM | #8 | |||||||
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LASur5r+P:
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During this period, Chinese culture, technology and political system (not to mention Chinese writing) were accepted as something akin to god's gift by Koreans, who were basically Sinicized Ural-Altaic-speaking tribesmen. This is not to say that Koreans were without their own culture and history - merely that they adopted Chinese culture with reckless abandon, deeming it superior. Until a relatively recent creation and adoption of a native Korean alphabet system (Han-Gul), Koreans used Chinese writing exclusively (they still mix a considerable amount of Chinese script with their own as Japanese do). Quote:
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Skorzeny
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May 21, 2002, 09:43 PM | #9 |
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Judo?
Do I remember correctly that the student Kano sent out to these contests actually used aiki-jutsu techniquest instead of "pure" judo?
Also, to reiterate boris_01's statement, if you are looking for a defense-oriented school, forget the names. Look for what is being taught. I don't care if it's Korean, Japanese, Chinese or Martian... it's the stuff being taught and the manner in which is taught to be used that's important. Although I am "ranked" in ITF TaeKwon-Do, I've "played" with Aikido, Kyokushinkai, and Ueichi-Ryu and little bit of what was being called "Combat Karate". What I've found after almost thirty years is that essentially one martial art pretty much ends up looking like any other. Yes, they all have their specialties, but it all comes down to "a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick" (my apologies if I have mis-quoted the late, great Bruce Lee, but he got it right)! "Pure" styles??? Doubtful anywhere in the world today unless you find someone on a remote island with no previous contact with the outside world. Koreans learned Chinese techniques, Japanes learned Okinawan techniques which came from China which came from ... who knows where? If you are looking for a good Korean instructor, look for one who doesn't rely on rote and thinks for himself / herself. Again from Bruce, "take what is useful and discard what is not."
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May 21, 2002, 10:55 PM | #10 | |||
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Slish:
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Sure, the practicality of the techniques should be very important in picking the right schools, but in my opinion, propagation of inaccurate, even fantastical historical myths of their systems says a lot about the intellectual honesty of such schools and instructors. Skorzeny
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May 22, 2002, 07:40 AM | #11 | ||||||||
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Ah, good discussion!
Boris said...
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You also mention the influence of Northen Chinese styles, especially in kicking techniques. This also makes sense to me, and in fact, I've heard that before. But doesn't that actually support the idea of, for example, TKD not being just a Korean version of Shotokan? If Korean MA in pre-colonial times was heavily influenced by Chinese MA, and heavily influenced by Japanese MA afterward, then wouldn't it seem believable that Korean MA would include all of those influences (and all of them filtered through a Korean "take" on them)? Mind you, I'm not arguing so much here as I am trying to work through these things according to my understanding of them. Quote:
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It's all musing though. I wonder if there is any archeologucal evidence of this? I wonder if there are any modern practicioners of "Taekyon" and if so, what it looks like. If it looks like a Chinese northern style, but with some significant difference in technique... Anyway, it's fun to think about. There is one other problem I have with all this, though. What you're saying, Skorzeny, does sound a lot like the whole, "all MA come from China" idea which is patently false. Now again, it may depend on one's definition of MA, but all cultures tend to develop their own methods of fighting. Even if Chinese MA were really so influential, it would make sense that they then _influenced_ local MA. But replaced them, or filled a vacuum? That doesn't really make sense to me. Quote:
BTW, just want to add that I am a TKD guy. I have a 1st dan in ITF TKD. So I am not busting on the art. I've just always been curious about the history of it. Regards, Matt |
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May 22, 2002, 11:15 AM | #12 | |||||
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Skorzeny
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May 22, 2002, 11:37 AM | #13 |
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Skorzeny is correct.
It would be hard to say what a "native art" is, anyway. Everything is infuenced by contact with the outside. Oh, and the ones who claim to be practicing "TaeKyon" are full of it. It's some other martial art, or a pastiche of a few. TaeKyon ceased to exist many, many years ago - at least in any verifiable form. Hapkido is as close to a native art as there is in Korea, and it claims to be a descendant of Aiki-jitsu (as does Aikido). Wherever it came from, it's certainly unique and Korean, although it isn't even recognized by the Korean gov't as an official martial art. (sorry - don't mean to open another can of worms altogether). Just a little personal note - I've been in TKD since 1980, and I was taught the "old forms"; that is, the Shotokan forms that Funakoshi taught. There's a reason it used to be referred to as "Korean Karate". Interestingly enough, I've noticed that when my instructor (7th dan [color=#FF0000]â–ˆ[/color][color=#FF0000]â–ˆ[/color][color=#FF0000]â–ˆ[/color]/KTA/CMK) does a side kick, it lacks the distinctive TKD chamber (knee up high, kicking foot in front of standing knee) and instead looks very much like a Japanese side kick with the foot-to-knee chamber. I've also noticed this among the handful of "old timers" I've met over the years. I picked this technique because it's one of TKD's "signature" techniques - it seems to have changed in the last 40 years. And the modern "martial" arts are a lot more geared to personal self-defense/combat than any military action. I just can't imagine - in any age - a massed formation side-kicking their way through the enemy.
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May 22, 2002, 11:52 AM | #14 | |
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Skorzeny,
I've found this discussion to be hugely edifying! So I really just have a couple more comments and a question. Let's do the question first. Is there anything written somewhere that refers to the Korean practice of what is now TKD as Shotokan? That would be the real nail in the coffin, so to speak. Although, come to speak of it, I do remember reading someone's bio (can't remember who) that said they studied TKD, which was then called Korean Karate. The light is slowly turning on... And I wanted to respond to this too... Quote:
Matt |
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May 22, 2002, 05:37 PM | #15 | ||
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May 22, 2002, 06:07 PM | #16 | |||
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Danger Dave:
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Obversely, try to find any documentation that supports the "pure" art view. You won't, except for the "there is no documentation because, you see, I learned it from a secreat mountain monk" bit. D.W. Drang: Quote:
Skorzeny
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May 25, 2002, 06:07 AM | #17 |
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I found Tae Kwondo of Korea almost the same to Japanese karate that has emphasis on kicking techniques. I myself have studied hard this art, but find it that it has no so much difference to japanese karate.
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May 26, 2002, 12:51 AM | #18 | |
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Skorzeny
You disappoint me. How can you have spent so much time there and not have studied and absorbed the wisdom of Chiun? We read those books religiously when I was at the language school, mostly when we should have been trying to memorize Hanja.
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May 27, 2002, 01:23 AM | #19 |
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Grappling and Military Combat?
grappling did have some practical military value back in the day, although it certainly wasn't hugely important.
Many Western fencing fechtbuchen (fight books, essentially instructionals for knights) contain both grappling with daggers, and appropriate methods of grappling with swords and without. However, some of these techinques were mainly appopriate for the judical duel. Many koryu Japanese sword systems were connected with a corresponding jujitsu that taught anti-sword empty-hand techniques and sword grappling. of course, you have to remember that the common sword was mostly dead last on the list of battlefield weapons in Europe, Japan, and Asia. Bows, spears, pikes, halberds, and later gunpowder weapons all ranked higher in most people's estimation. Sometimes 5 to 6 feet long two handed swords were used (i.e. "claymores", no-dachi's, etc. depending on tradition) against pikes, or normal sword and buckler men against pikes. The Spanish swordsmen were especially renowned for their techinque against pike formations, slipping through the cracks. Swords were important, and take on so much mythology, because they were intensely personal weapons. Just like a modern soldier loves his rifle and says that, "There are many rifles like this one, but this one is mine," so the sword of the Middle Ages was analogous to the handgun of the modern American civilian and the rifle of the soldier. Most soldiers in practice owned their swords, and they considered it a little part of them.
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May 29, 2002, 12:21 PM | #20 | |
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Regards, Matt |
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May 30, 2002, 03:31 AM | #21 | ||
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May 30, 2002, 11:56 AM | #22 |
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Until the late medieval times, the two dominant weapons of war in almost all areas of the world were: spears and bows.
I should also add that shields were often associated with spears, horses with bows. Skorzeny
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May 31, 2002, 02:42 PM | #23 |
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Korean Martial Arts
The link posted earlier to kuk sool won's page probably explained this better, but here goes my quick attempt:
Kuk Sool Won is based upon the traditional martial arts of Korea. It teaches techniques based upon 1) Royal Court martial arts, 2) family, or tribal martial arts, and 3) Buddhist monk martial arts. The Royal Court martial arts include many of the weapons, and shows a lot of Chinese influence, probably because it was the Chinese that were running the royal court. Weapons used include: sword, spear, short knives, fans, bows, halberds, etc. Family or tribal martial arts are the simpler weapons, like staffs, rope, etc. These were probably more distinctively Korean than the royal court arts, since they were developed by locals for their own use, not for display in the royal court. The Buddhist monk arts would include some weapons, such as the cane and short staff, and are where much of the Ki training comes from. You can see differences between the staff techniques of the monks vs. those of the court and tribal within the Kuk Sool Won system itself, which I found interesting. As far as history, Kuk Sool Won was created from the teachings of many masters in Korea, which were passed on to In Hyuk Suh over 60 years ago, from the time he was a small child until adulthood. He put them all into a single system, called it Kuk Sool Won ( National Martial Art), and started teaching it to others about 40 years ago. The schools are run in a traditional manner, where the students learn some Korean language ( the names for the kicks, punches, etc. ), are encouraged to show proper martial arts etiquette, and all wear black uniforms, etc. There is a rank system, and advancement to black belt usually takes several years of training, usually over 3 years. Further advancement takes even longer. There's some reference to the hworang, or 'flower-of-youth' in the Kuk Sool Won literature. They were a group of warriors in Korea around the 1500's, I think, maybe even earlier , almost like knights, in that they were trained as fighters, and held to a strict moral code. When reading about Korean history, I'm struck by its resemblance to Greek history. They were all lumped together as Koreans by others, but it was more like a whole bunch of independent city states, each fighting with and against the other, as well as the Chinese and Japanese. Note that there was influence both ways between the many cultures in the area, such as Korean sword techniques and technology going to the Japanese, Chinese techniques going to the Koreans, and all of them intermingled at various times. There are many interesting stories about the Korean peninsula, if you're interested in the martial arts of the area, you would probably like learning more about it. Gepzo |
May 31, 2002, 03:17 PM | #24 | |||
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Skorzeny
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June 4, 2002, 04:19 PM | #25 |
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?
I have a nice picture here, its of a young boy, with Down's Syndrome, running in the special olympics... its very moving, such strength of will, such determination, and a sense of triumph over adversity...
The caption reads: Arguing on the Internet is like Running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded. This isn't an argument. I was trying to convey information, and I was doing a bad job of it, apparently. If Matt Willis wanted to know about Korean martial arts, he's got enough info now to start a more directed search, and I hope he's happy with that. I'm saddened that some posters have chosen to make this into a soap box for debate about the merits of certain systems. Peace, Gepzo |
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