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Old June 16, 2015, 09:02 PM   #51
FITASC
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to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
This interesting because I have friends from another country who come here in 3 month increments for 6 months at a time and they bring their own guns and buy ammo all the time which would seem to violate:

Quote:
t appears to me that unless a non-immigrant alien has a hunting license (or qualified for one of the other exceptions) he is a prohibited person.
This comment............guess I a somewhat confused......
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Old June 16, 2015, 09:05 PM   #52
James K
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The ID would not have to be a drivers license, but I would not accept anything that was not a government issued picture ID, with the local address on it. And I would, if at all possible, photograph or photocopy the ID. That would keep an ATF scammer from claiming that he never showed you ID or that he showed you an out-of-state ID.

The best practice, IMHO, is to meet the buyer at a dealer's store, and have him do the paperwork (for a fee). That is required in some states; many see it as limiting "freedom" but it also serves to protect the innocent from "sting" operations.

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Old June 16, 2015, 09:25 PM   #53
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by FITASC
Quote:
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
This interesting because I have friends from another country who come here in 3 month increments for 6 months at a time and they bring their own guns and buy ammo all the time which would seem to violate:

Quote:
t appears to me that unless a non-immigrant alien has a hunting license (or qualified for one of the other exceptions) he is a prohibited person.
This comment............guess I a somewhat confused......
I guess you'll have to stay confused, because I've cited and quoted the applicable law. We also have insufficient facts to decide whether or not your friends might come under one of the exceptions; nor will we be exploring that possibility, because we've already drifted too far off topic.
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Old June 16, 2015, 09:42 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Frank
If things go sour, it might well be up to a jury to decide what would have been reasonable under the circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
I have had to testify in a case like that. Person A sold a gun to Person B without even checking ID. Was he legally required to? No.

Then Person B used the gun in a homicide. Person A wasn't charged, but the victim's family took civil action on the matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
At what point does blissful ignorance become negligence? I wouldn't want to be in a situation in which that line gets drawn by a prosecutor or a grand jury.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank
And if it reaches that point at all, you'll be in for a lawyer's bill of at least several thousand dollars. If it becomes a question for a trial jury, you'll have legal bills on the order of $50,000 plus.
Is there enough upside in the sale of any gun you own to warrant that sort of exposure?
Nope.

All of that pretty much spells out why I photo the ID, and I tell them upfront about it.
I couldn't care less about offending the buyer or a losing the sale.
I'm not there to make a buck or desperately pawn off a gun to anyone with cash.
I'll have their identity, and be able to easily show due diligence beyond the opaque private transfer laws... its just good cya.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
It's your right to decline to sell to anyone you choose, but accusing people who wish to maintain a modicum of privacy and anonymity of poor stewardship is a cheap shot. I know several very respectable people who prefer (when possible) to buy in private, face-to-face transactions specifically to avoid creating a paper trail. I understand that and I respect it.
I cant really say I understand that... why does does the paper trail matter if its all legit?
It's not as if the paper is getting sent to the ATF for future door knocks and confiscation.
But... the papers could sure help if your old gun turns up at a crime scene, or if your buddy unwittingly sells you a stolen gun, or...

What I said isn't really intended as a cheap shot, although I can see how it could read that way.
Its mostly aimed at those who talk big "I don’t care what Uncle Sam says, this is a free country, I'll do what I want and sell whatever I want to whoever I want".
We all know that guy... the one who routinely makes us all look bad.

Last edited by Dashunde; June 17, 2015 at 10:19 AM.
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Old June 17, 2015, 01:26 AM   #55
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Tom-Post #38
Quote:
I have had to testify in a case like that. Person A sold a gun to Person B without even checking ID. Was he legally required to? No.

Then Person B used the gun in a homicide. Person A wasn't charged, but the victim's family took civil action on the matter.
Can you tell us the outcome of the civil suit?
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Old June 17, 2015, 07:38 AM   #56
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Can you tell us the outcome of the civil suit?
I haven't heard back from the guy, but I can see the suit being successful.

If I sell a gun under suspicious circumstances to someone who I openly acknowledge was acting "weird and kinda sketchy," I've failed on the duty to care front. If someone loses a family member as a result, I've got a very real problem on my hands. The burden of proof for civil negligence is lower than it is for criminal negligence.
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Old June 17, 2015, 09:04 AM   #57
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Thank you Tom Servo. I see what we called lawyers in the military spouting off on line all the time. It is always the same nonsense about what is legal under the criminal code. Some of these people are actually lawyers. I see advice like "Go ahead and do it, that law is not legal" printed all the time. That is like telling someone to not look both ways when crossing at a designated crosswalk because motorists have to legally stop for pedestrians in that state. Sometimes the repercussions of the act can be pretty bad. If you get involved in a civil lawsuit, you are going to wish you were charged with a criminal offense instead of being sued.

Last edited by Tom Servo; June 17, 2015 at 11:41 AM.
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Old June 17, 2015, 11:16 AM   #58
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The buyer of any gun i sell is i'd. The name and address of the buyer goes on my Excel database of guns i own/have owned. i prefer to see an OK concealed carry permit when selling a handgun.
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Old June 17, 2015, 09:59 PM   #59
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I think not having ID that verifies a claim of residency would fall under the 'reasonable cause to have known' language of the law, and you are on thin, cracking ice, indeed.

Doesn't pass the Prudent Man test.
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Old June 18, 2015, 08:55 AM   #60
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I cant really say I understand that... why does does the paper trail matter if its all legit?
The reason some people fear the "paper trail" is because they believe the US government (or state or local governments) will ultimately require gun registration as a prelude to gun bans. There is precedent for this in England, Germany Australia and other countries. No paper trail means that there is a better likelihood that the purchaser, in the future, would be able to illegally keep his gun(s) in the event of such a gun ban.
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Old June 18, 2015, 09:18 AM   #61
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I am about to sell one of my handguns to someone that responded to my advertisement. If the persons says they are a legal resident of the state I live in (GA) but has no ID of my state (maybe they have an ID for another state and haven't got it changed over) should I refuse to sell it to them.

Is there any liability for me if they are not a resident. What is the best way to complete the transaction if no GA picture ID avaiable without breaking the law.
As it turns out, I ended up selling the gun to someone else that showed up first with the money and he had a valid ID. So it became a non issue.
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Old June 18, 2015, 10:15 AM   #62
Don P
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That said, if I sell a gun in a private transaction and the buyer uses it in a crime, it will still be traced to me. In that case, it would behoove me to have some sort of documentation that I took precautions before selling it
Spot on statement. I sold a handgun to an individual at a local gun show. Buyer had a drivers license, conceal carry permit from our state. Photo and address on both matched. had a bill of sale with all the info on it we both signed each others copy. Month and a half later sheriff is at my door inquiring about a Beretta that I own (gun sold Beretta). Good thing I had a bill of sale. Gun was used in a armed robbery in NJ. Sheriff called NJ detective from my kitchen giving all the info from the bill of sale. Buyer denied making the purchase had to fax a copy of bill of sale to NJ they in turn get ATF involved.
They found me (4473 paper trail) NJ calls mfg, mfg gives distributors name, who gives dealers name, who produces my 4473 as last know owner.
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Old June 18, 2015, 06:24 PM   #63
Dashunde
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The reason some people fear the "paper trail" is because they believe the US government (or state or local governments) will ultimately require gun registration as a prelude to gun bans. There is precedent for this in England, Germany Australia and other countries. No paper trail means that there is a better likelihood that the purchaser, in the future, would be able to illegally keep his gun(s) in the event of such a gun ban.
The paper trail created by a 4473 FFL/retail purchase is distinctly different from the swapping of ID's and bill-of-sale written up during a private sale.
The private sale documents are to be kept private, only to be shown to authorities if you need to prove your self free and clear of someone elses misdeed.

See Don's post above, its a great example of the benefits of documenting a private sale.
It's also a great example of a 4473 bringing the law to an innocent man's door and effectively requiring him to prove as much.

Last edited by Dashunde; June 18, 2015 at 10:10 PM.
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Old June 18, 2015, 09:08 PM   #64
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The biggest paper trail is the NRA. How many of you are members? I don't worry about that end of it.
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Old June 19, 2015, 04:08 PM   #65
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the grand majority of people here in CT who sell firearms privately require you to have a valid pistol permit before they sell a handgun or in some cases a long arm to you. The state laws here full of grey areas especially open carry. Now they require an ammo certificate to purchase ammo (unless you have a ccl, which supercedes all that hassle).
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Old June 20, 2015, 02:29 AM   #66
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With the knowledge that they either don't have or refuse to provide GA id, I would not sell the gun unless they come up with a valid GA drivers license. I understand the pressure when you want to sell something, but guns are a little different even though they shouldn't be. Or, I would simply insist that the gun transfer be handled at the local FFL dealer with all paperwork completed.

Had the whole deal been made without the knowledge, then I would probably feel okay about the transfer/sale. However, at my age, I really prefer seeing some sort of ID with a gun transaction.

If I had to guess, they are probably GA residents or are technically a GA resident but have not gotten a drivers license, and simply don't want any record of them buying the firearm. There are many people like that and you see it on the forums all the time...... ask for ID, forget the sale..... My feeling is that I don't need the sale bad enough to take chances. I would rather landfill the gun. That of course is a bit ridiculous as you can just find another buyer but may end of selling the gun for less.

If I were selling one of my guns locally and advertising, I would simply make the ID a condition of the sale. IF people have a problem with that, then they won't contact you to purchase.

Last edited by 22-rimfire; June 20, 2015 at 02:48 AM.
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Old June 20, 2015, 04:19 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by coolbreezy
the grand majority of people here in CT who sell firearms privately require you to have a valid pistol permit before they sell a handgun or in some cases a long arm to you.
That's because CT requires a transfer authorization from the State Police before any firearm can be bought/sold. There are so-called certificates of eligibility that allow purchase but not carry, but pretty much nobody ever bothers with those. So the other avenue to getting the State Police to approve the transaction is if the buyer has a pistol permit.

CT also has its own form that asks all the same questions that are on the 4473 (DPS-67-C http://www.ct.gov/despp/lib/despp/sl...s/dps-67-c.pdf ), and then they have a four-part form that includes complete personal information (except social security number) and signatures for both buyer and seller. One copy stays with the seller, one goes to the buyer, the third goes to the State Police, and the fourth goes to the police department in the buyer's city of residence. (DPS-3-C http://www.ct.gov/despp/lib/despp/sl...ms/dps-3-c.pdf ).

Since the post-Sandy Hook law making bloodbath, Connecticut requires either a pistol permit or a "certificate of eligibility to purchase ammunition" just to buy ammo -- even .22 rimfire ammo.

Almost forgot -- the seller has to call the State Police before any sale and get a transaction authorization number. I grew up in Connecticut. Close to 20 years ago I guy I knew there sold a handgun. He got the required transaction authorization number, but he forget to send in the DPS-3-C form. He told me that months later the State Police came knocking on his door. He had to track down the buyer and get the form filled out and signed after the fact. He was lucky that (a) he found the buyer, and (b) the buyer was a good guy and didn't jam him up by refusing to sign the form.
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