This is ridiculous.....

[Pathfinder45]

Well, you could use the bipod for targets from the prone position and take it off for hunting. But I can't help but wonder if the rifle would have a change of impact by removing the bipod and need to be re-zeroed. Also, I was taught the prone position with the use of the sling. There were no bipods on the firing-line then. Makes me wonder if they are even allowed in formal competition? I never shoot prone anymore, since I don't shoot in formal competition and don't find it a practical position for hunting as it doesn't give much altitude over brush. I find that, for me, the off-hand-standing position, and the kneeling position are the two most important positions to learn well for hunting as they can be assumed the most quickly when seconds matter. The sitting position is very worthwhile if you have the time for a little longer shot. Back East I've seen some fairly elaborate tree stands, but I've never done that. Some of them you could have a bench for your tripod and a cooler full of beer as you wait in ambush..... a 20 pound rifle wouldn't even matter if you don't have to carry it. I hike around with a rifle. A sling is near mandatory; bipod not so much. Good luck with your rifle.

[taylorce1]

Competitions like FT/R and all tactical long range steel shoots allow use of a bipod. Also it depends on the area where you hunt if it's practical to shoot from the prone position or not. I'd say I shoot probably a good 70% of my hunting shots from the prone position.

[Pathfinder45]

I'm in the Pacific NW. Probably a lot different from the Santa Fe Trail.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by Pathfinder45

I'm in the Pacific NW. Probably a lot different from the Santa Fe Trail

That's probably an understatement for sure, coastal rainforest is VASTLY different compared to open prairie where I live. It's also vastly different from the mountains I hunt as far as density of vegetation goes. I'm more like the eastern part of Washington state.

[Pathfinder45]

My Hood National Forest, West slope of Cascades, occasionally Rogue River N.F. too. A little less jungle than the coastal forests, but still thicker than what you are used to. I can shoot prone and have found it to be the most stable of field positions. It's just that there is generally brush or logs or grass in the way when you're that low to the ground. Consequently, I have virtually abandoned that position and no longer train for it.

[Jpw360]

So to revive this post i went out again and only 10 bullets with me to try 4 groups at 100 yds NO BIPOD ONLY 2 SOCKS FULL OF SAND. First group was the worse...top left. Then second was top right. Third was bottom right and forth was bottom left. This is exact same target inused at 300 with that group still there...ignore the center shots. The thing i noticed shooting off sand bags compared to bipod is that it take more efforth to keep the rifle laterally stable

[Pathfinder45]

And that's why they invented bayonets; for people that didn't bring enough ammo! Sorry, but I couldn't resist......

I don't see the targets, but it sounds like you may be having some stability issues. You could also try swapping out scopes with one that's proven to shoot well. Bring more ammo, seriously.

[taylorce1]

I'm trying to figure out how you shot four groups with 10 rounds. Could be the rifle, scope, ammunition, shooter, or combination of the above. We really don't have enough information to properly diagnose the problem.

[stagpanther]

Welcome to TFL and thank you for posting. All our rifle experts are currently engaged. Please stay on the site and one of them will be with you shortly. Your post is important to us!

One of the best lines I've ever seen here. : )

Anyways, I'd start with the basics--is the bolt, chamber, bore etc. properly cleaned and lubed (OK--won't start that food fight--but at least followed the manufacturer's directions)? Are your cases showing anything odd? Are you sure the forend portion of the stock isn't coming in contact with the barrel? receiver screws properly tightened?

It's not that unusual for a rifle to be "grouping lousy" and then seemingly miraculously "come together" with the right cartridge. I never pass judgement on a rifle's potential until I'm at least 100 rounds down the tube--it's going to take me alone that long to get a good feel for it, usually. I wouldn't worry about group precision until I was shooting a reasonable selection of premium ammo and handloads. I like to use the long bag rests that are easier to hold and repeat the rifle's position on--the closer to the trigger the better (in other words lessen the weight variables out towards the forend as much as possible.

Just a few wild guesses.

[Mystro]

There are so many variables when starting with a new rifle and scope. I would remount the scope and make sure everything is done correctly. Then I would start with the ammo. Some guns can be very ammo sensitive. Never just try one weight and brand of ammo. (FYI Federal Fusion seems to do well in alot of rifles). Next I would check how the action is mounted to the stock. Its not uncommon to find a loose screw or clearance issue. Then look at the shooter. Finally I would check the scope for a defect.

[Jpw360]

PATHFINDER45. AMMO IS NOT AN ISSUE....HAVE PLENTY OF IT. I ONLY TOOK 10 TO STRESS CONCENTRATION. i have used this scope on my tikka 300 varmint hb before i got my st-10. So scope is not an issue.

[Jpw360]

STAGPANTHER THATS PROBABLY ONE OF THE BEST ADVICES IVE GOTNSO FAR. i will really look into all of that and definitely follow up with the premium ammo for at least 100 rounds. In this rifle i only use Nosler Throphy Grade Long Range with accubond. I have about 25 boxes still so ill see everything turns out after a fine inspection and at least another 50 rounds

[stagpanther]

STAGPANTHER THATS PROBABLY ONE OF THE BEST ADVICES IVE GOTNSO FAR. i will really look into all of that and definitely follow up with the premium ammo for at least 100 rounds. In this rifle i only use Nosler Throphy Grade Long Range with accubond. I have about 25 boxes still so ill see everything turns out after a fine inspection and at least another 50 rounds

Just the standard guesses--I'm no expert. Also make sure you're giving your barrel enough cool down between shots.

I'm not saying use premium ammo for your first 100 necessarily--just that I wouldn't worry so much about precision when you take the first shots using conventional factory ammo. I believe in barrel break-ins--most people don't --arguing it puts unnecessary wear on the bore. Always seems to work for me--even if the benefits are imaginary : )

[603Country]

I know you trust that scope that you have on the rifle, but...I'd still try another scope. I had a new scope go bad during load workups for a new rifle. I had groups all over the place. Made me crazy. Finally had nothing else to try but to swap out the scope. It was the scope. A brand new scope. Wasn't expecting that.

And just the other day I was shooting an old rifle with a new barrel. Scope was a proven performer. Grouping was terrible. I just could NOT figure out where the problem was. For some reason, I picked the rifle up by the scope (maybe to throw the whole thing) and the scope was very loose. How'd that happen....I have no idea.

Just for grins, try another scope and recheck all the screws on the mounts and rings. Can't hurt to eliminate one variable.

I seriously doubt that barrel breakin is the issue. I've broken some in and not broken some in and I just can't see that it makes a difference. If you have to shoot a bunch of ammo through the barrel in the hopes that it'll fix your problem, that isn't much of a plan.

[skizzums]

I personally have a very difficult time shooting from the vanguard bipod. It's a great active hunting bipod, but terrible for target shooting. It is spring loaded on a pivoting tilt system and its about a foot off the ground. I am much bettter suited using a low to the ground, simple and cheap bipod like a ncstar, disappointing since the vanguard bipods are far from cheap. The fact that it pivots so much, it doesn't lend to shot-to-shot repeatability. Just my opinion as fellow vanguard owner.

[Pathfinder45]

Is your stock made of plastic? I know a lot of people have greater confidence with plastic stocks. I'm not one of them. I can tolerate a plywood stock and have full confidence in them but prefer Walnut. I've heard some fairly negative comments about flimsy and flexible plastic stocks that come standard with so many rifles today. Maybe yours is one of the better ones. I know this can be a frustrating thing to work through when you're in the middle of it. Hopefully, you will get the problem resolved. There are some rifles that mysteriously just won't live up to the reputation of an otherwise reputable model. If my poking a little fun at the situation caused irritation, please accept my apology. We all want to help. Regards, Pathfinder.

[AK103K]

I have rifles with wood and synthetic/plastic stocks, and have found the later tend to be the better choice, especially if youre shooting across the whole year, and in any weather.

Ive had wood stocked rifles that shot phenomenally too, but most of those stocks were completely sealed. A couple of those were factory Remington 700V stocks, that werent completely floated too. They had that little "pad" right at the end of the forearm.

These were shot with my 700V in .308 at 100 yards, prone, off a bipod.....





This was shot with my one AR, an Armalite M15A4(T), again, 100 yards, prone off a bipod....



I dont have any pics handy, but I shot some really amazing groups working up loads for my old Savage Scout, with its oft complained about (on the net anyway, it never bothered me) plastic stock, pencil thin barrel, and Scout scope. Used a bipod for those groups too. One 20 shot group (shot over about a half hour), was right around an inch.


I shot a lot of HP, and DCM, military type matches back in the 80's and 90's. I dont normally shoot off a bench, and Im very familiar with shooting with a sling, and in all positions (no slings offhand in matches we shot). Ive qualified expert on a number of occasions, and Ive never shot groups like above (shot some pretty good ones all the same though ), from a slung in, prone position, even with a couple of the same guns above. Ive only shot those size groups, from a bipod, sandbags, or a ruck, and the majority of them were off bipods.

Not all bipods are created equal either, and that has a lot of bearing on what you get. My bipods are all "low" versions. Not the bench version, but something in the range of 6"-9" or so. They need to be reasonable in height, so you get a more natural position. If you have to strain beyond what you would normally shoot without one, youre probably not going to do well with it.

Most of my rifle shooting these days is done with iron or red dot sighted guns, and from field positions, mostly cross legged sitting and offhand (traditional target, and a couple of others). My one AR, and a recent Mossberg MVP, are the only ones that are scoped, and draw blood, and they are usually just critters in the garden and out across the back fields.

Some guns are just use specific type guns, and are set up in the manner they are going to be used. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you stay flexible, and dont get stuck in that rut.

[Jpw360]

On this particular rifle its is a composite stock....and i just got today from amazon a promising bipot UTG LOW PROFILE SWAT BIPOD. I will just for the benefit of the doubt go ahead an swap out that scope and try a different one on that rifle and also try a proven rifle that shoots well with that scope

[skizzums]

that's a perfect bipod for stable shooting. ive got a couple myself. i promise you'll see a difference, especially shooting from prone. it's just too hard to get up on the 10" vangaurd and keep it steady a the same time, plus once the shot is taken, you dont know what that springed pivot head is doing

[stagpanther]

4 groups with 10 rounds sounds a bit odd to me too--but you say the groups more or less clocked around your POA--which leads me to believe "something's loose" somewhere--I would think if it were inherently inaccurate you would simply be getting wide dispersion but more or less in the same area of POA. That's a premium priced rifle--I'd say it's time to get on the phone and call Browning--after reading some reviews it appears that expectations are for sub-MOA right from the git-go.

[Jpw360]

Well im glad to teport some improvements. So i decided to remoce the vangard bipod and take some shoots of sandbags and them to install the new bipod bu UTG TACTICAL..
And here is what happen.

Shooting prone of a soft surface...shooting 139 grain hornady factory load. 5 shoots per group.

With the vangard bipod at 100 yds and no rear sand bags inwas getting 2.5 moa. ..with rear sand bags no difference.

Shotting without bipods. Rear and front sand bags. Result were 1.5 moa at 100yds

Shopting with a rear sand bag and UTG bipod. Result was 1.0 moa at 100 yds.


So i think next step wout be tontske thevladt configuration and step it up to 200 yards and see what happens

[Pathfinder45]

So, it would seem the original bipod was problematic..... interesting.

[FITASC]

Also sounds like he's using different ammo from the first try. That might be all that needs to be done.

Personally, my 7mm likes everything from 140 up and really shines with 160SMK.

[Mike38]

Yes, there is bi-pod haters here for sure. The best group I have shot in my life (0.44 inch) was off a bi-pod. And to top it off, it was one of those made in China Winchester bi-pods from Walmart, with a $200 NEF Handi Rifle and a $70 scope. Not a fluke either. I consistently push half inch groups with this set up. But, it took two years to find a reload that works.

[Jpw360]

Totally agree qith you there... that original vangard bipod was over q00 bucks canadian...the new utg bipod was just 35 buck but its definately better constructed and it works well... i love it